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Scottish Independence, yay or nay?

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7 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Be interesting to see who gets lumbered with berwick r*ngers 

They're non-league now the fucking charlatans.

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It would be as silly for Scotland to leave the UK as it was for us to leave the EU. That said, you can more than understand why they would want to. 

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Financially it’s probably not a good idea but, if I was them, I’d be thinking; “fuck it, happy to go without for a few years if it means ridding ourselves of the clowns in central government”.

 

This is probably an attitude I criticised people for having when they expressed a desire to leave the EU but, the difference here, is that the European Union is not run by Boris Johnson and his gang of fuckwits. 

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I've said it before but if I were them I'd jump at the chance!

 

Bad news for us south of the border as even less chance of getting the fascists out of government, but that's our problem!

 

The sweatys should fortify the border to keep us English bastards out too!

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18 minutes ago, Creator Supreme said:

I've said it before but if I were them I'd jump at the chance!

 

Bad news for us south of the border as even less chance of getting the fascists out of government, but that's our problem!

 

The sweatys should fortify the border to keep us English bastards out too!

Me too, if there was a similar movement for independence for the North West I'd he all over that shit, but would prefer it done without stoking nationalism or through demonising people from 'down south'.

 

I don't like what I've seen of the SNP, nor any nationalist party. The Tories being cunts doesn't make these lot less cunty by default. 

 

They last a "once in generation" referendum but will use whatever means necessary to inflame nationalism to try and get a rematch, be it via the Brexit debate or now Covid. Ironic given that the spondulicks that Sturgeon is spreading around to tackle it and make herself look more capable and caring than Westminster (not hard to do) has though mostly come from our villainous English pockets.

 

The irony here of course is that they bemoan the idea of having Brexit forced on them, but have no issue with having repeated referenda until they get what they want and can force what they want on people who have already said no.

 

I don't know much about their politics but believe it's not especially left wing, despite the way it's painted. It's interesting that both Andrew Neil and George Galloway, who are about as poles apart as you can get politically, both seemingly have no time for the SNP.

 

I don't even know if Sturgeon is esoecuslly arsed about the EU but suspect that if she is, it's because she knows Scotland would need to rely on it.  A sort of 'my dad's bigger than your dad' situation when it leaves the UK.

 

I would be intrigued to see how they did as an independent country, with no villains of the piece the SNP would actually have to put a shift in. And I'd be surprised if the free university, free bridges, free prescriptions could be funded by a seemingly doomed oil industry.

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3 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

The spondulicks that Sturgeon is spreading around has mostly come from our pockets.

 

Bit of a myth that unless you can back it up.

 

The SNP are cunts btw, I agree on that.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Mook said:

 

Bit of a myth that unless you can back it up.

 

The SNP are cunts btw, I agree on that.

 

 

Surely it's just basic economics? 5.5  million people in Scotland, 55 million in England, but Scotland entitied to the same furlough and small business support and has the same NHS and public health resources per head presumably (possibly more).

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-calls-furlough-scheme-22181196

 

It's like with this. It's fair comment but what she's doing is making demands of someoen who's got books to balance yet doesn't have to do so herself (not in this case). If she only had the Scottish taxpayer to fund that furlough scheme would she extend it? 

 

It's opportunism. Labour councils do the same thing in some cases, some of them fuck people over then blame Tory cuts. Difference with them is that they're not pushing their owm long-standing, all pervasive singular agenda.

 

There's a nasty underbelly to the SNP's spiel though that presents as every bit as unpalatable as the likes of UKIP's, except it's people like me getting vilified rather Polish brickies, and I don't like it, especially not when I'm being fetched on my tax returns for filthy lucre that's headed north of the wall.

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4 minutes ago, Spy Bee said:

I'm now in favour of Indy Wales.

 

Wales can fuck off with any abandon ship plans, at least the Scotts have had the good grace to not help land us in this shit in the first place. 

 

Pit towns voting Tory did what even call centre work could never do to me, it broke my spirit.

 

 

mapChanges-en.png

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33 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

There's a nasty underbelly to the SNP's spiel though that presents as every bit as unpalatable as the likes of UKIP's, except it's people like me getting vilified rather Polish brickies, and I don't like it, especially not when I'm being fetched on my tax returns for filthy lucre that's headed north of the wall.

There is? I'm English and have lived in Scotland for about 7 years now. I've never felt the SNP displayed any anti-English bigotry, and they're certainly nothing like UKIP. They promote civic, not ethnic nationalism and are broadly soft-left, social democrats. Also, as Mook says, the notion of Scotland being a basket case failed economy subsidised by the rest of the UK is a myth.

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46 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Surely it's just basic economics? 5.5  million people in Scotland, 55 million in England, but Scotland entitied to the same furlough and small business support and has the same NHS and public health resources per head presumably (possibly more).

 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-calls-furlough-scheme-22181196

 

It's like with this. It's fair comment but what she's doing is making demands of someoen who's got books to balance yet doesn't have to do so herself (not in this case). If she only had the Scottish taxpayer to fund that furlough scheme would she extend it? 

 

It's opportunism. Labour councils do the same thing in some cases, some of them fuck people over then blame Tory cuts. Difference with them is that they're not pushing their owm long-standing, all pervasive singular agenda.

 

There's a nasty underbelly to the SNP's spiel though that presents as every bit as unpalatable as the likes of UKIP's, except it's people like me getting vilified rather Polish brickies, and I don't like it, especially not when I'm being fetched on my tax returns for filthy lucre that's headed north of the wall.

I don't think it is 'basic economics' at all.

 

Plenty other small countries manage without good old England to bail them out. The suggestion that the English taxpayer pays for our free subscriptions & bridges up here just sounds like bollocks to me, if we're such a burden, why is Westminster so desperate to hold on?

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2 minutes ago, Dougie Do'ins said:

How would/could Scotland fund itself if it did break away ?

Just the same way other small countries like Ireland manage to- taxes on the population, income through tourism and exploitation of natural resources. 

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20 minutes ago, Mook said:

....if we're such a burden, why is Westminster so desperate to hold on?


A regular supply of haggis and Aberdeen Angus steak.

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Nationalism's fucking great, isn't it? Just consistently producing the best outcomes for societies all over the western world, and really getting to grips with the most pressing issues of our time.

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22 minutes ago, Mudface said:

Just the same way other small countries like Ireland manage to- taxes on the population, income through tourism and exploitation of natural resources. 

Would it be an instantaneous thing or would it take a few years to sort itself out ?

 

If Scotland did break away, I reckon Putin would be all offering all sorts of stuff to park his navy in Scotlands ports just to piss us off even more. 

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6 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

Nationalism's fucking great, isn't it? Just consistently producing the best outcomes for societies all over the western world, and really getting to grips with the most pressing issues of our time.

Ethnic nationalism is the problem, the SNP promotes civic nationalism. This blog explains it pretty well-

 

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/scottish-nationalism-stands-apart-from-other-secessionist-movements-for-being-civic-in-origin-rather-than-ethnic/

 



Scottish nationalism stands apart from other secessionist movements for being civic in origin, rather than ethnic
The contrast between the SNP and other nationalist movements and parties is striking, argues Elliott Green. The SNP explicitly promotes civic nationalism, claiming that membership in the Scottish nation is to be defined not by blood but by voluntary attachment to Scotland and participation in its civic life. This has paid off, with high support from ethnic minorities for independence.

Normally we think of nationalism as a right-wing ideology, where members of the nation are considered superior to non-members, and the latter are excluded from becoming citizens or full members of the nation.  This ideology becomes especially pernicious when membership of the nation is defined along ethnic lines, such that foreign immigrants are permanently excluded from becoming part of the nation, no matter how much they might want to assimilate.

This type of nationalism, commonly known as ethnic nationalism, is usually contrasted with civic nationalism, whereby the latter allows anyone to identify with the nation and its civic values regardless of their ethnicity.  Historically the ethnic/civic divide was mapped geographically along a western/eastern divide within Europe by scholars of nationalism like Hans Kohn, who identified civic nationalism as typical of the nations of western Europe (France, the UK, Switzerland and the Netherlands, as well as Scandinavia) and ethnic nationalism as exemplified by Germany, the nations of eastern Europe and the peripheral nations of western Europe like Ireland.

This dichotomy, while simple and useful, papered over the strong ethnic divisions in western Europe that have more recently come to the fore since Kohn first wrote about this topic in 1944. The Vlaams Blok in the Netherlands, the British National Party (BNP) in the UK, the Front National in France and the Danish People’s Party in Denmark have all explicitly rejected civic nationalism in favour of some form of ethnic nationalism. The success of these parties has varied, but the fact that many of their anti-immigration policies have been taken up by mainstream parties suggests how strong ethnic nationalism remains in much of western Europe.

The current debates on Scottish independence are a fascinating contrast to this narrative. The Scottish National Party (SNP) is explicitly nationalist, not only in its name but also in its goal to create a Scottish nation-state. However, it also explicitly promotes civic nationalism, such that it has claimed that membership in the Scottish nation is to be defined not by blood but by voluntary attachment to Scotland and participation in its civic life. The SNP has been rewarded with support from ethnic minorities, such that Scots of Asian descent actually support independence at a higher rate than the rest of the population.  The fact that such groups as Africans for an Independent Scotland, English Scots for Yes and Scots Asians for Yes even exist is clear evidence of how the Yes campaign is able to draw upon non-ethnically Scottish residents of Scotland who support independence.

Indeed, the contrast between the SNP and other nationalist movements and parties is striking. In the run-up to the recent European elections in May 2014 I received a flyer from the BNP, which attempted to explain to the ignorant masses how the SNP wasn’t a “real” nationalist party since true nationalism meant cutting immigration and protecting the rights of indigenous Britons.  Scottish nationalism is also different in this sense from other secessionist movements. Jacques Parizeau, the Premier of Quebec who led the secessionist campaign in Quebec’s 1995 referendum on independence, infamously blamed the failure of the campaign on “money and ethnic votes,” since around 90 per cent of immigrants voted against independence. Catalan nationalism also has a quiet undercurrent of ethnic nationalism, with one former President of the Catalan Parliament complaining that “Catalonia will disappear if current migration flows continue.”

In contrast, the SNP has praised high levels of immigration into Scotland, and it was an SNP representative, Bashir Ahmad, who became the first non-white and first Muslim Member of Scottish Parliament (MSP) in 2007, followed by the election of a second Muslim SNP MSP, Humza Yousaf, in 2011. Moreover, while non-white residents of Scotland have the right to vote in the referendum on independence, those Scots who live outside Scotland but within the UK are not allowed to cast a vote.  Thus those who are ethnically Scottish wholly or in part – including UK Prime Minister David Cameron, whose father was born in Scotland, and former Prime Minister Tony Blair, who was born in Edinburgh to a Scottish father – do not have the right to vote, in contrast to non-Scots resident in Scotland (including those from Commonwealth and European countries who are not UK citizens). This decision to exclude non-resident Scots from the vote only emphasizes the civic nature of Scottish nationalism, such that ethnic descent and birthplace is less important than one’s commitment to residence in Scotland.

Regardless of the outcome of Thursday’s vote, mainstream Scottish nationalism will most likely continue to be conceived as civic in origin, rather than ethnic. The question remains as to whether other secessionist movements in Spain, Canada and elsewhere will learn from the Scottish experience and pursue more a more civic conceptualization of the nation than they have in the past.

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1 hour ago, Section_31 said:

 

Wales can fuck off with any abandon ship plans, at least the Scotts have had the good grace to not help land us in this shit in the first place. 

 

Pit towns voting Tory did what even call centre work could never do to me, it broke my spirit.

 

 

mapChanges-en.png

 

Barely anywhere that's blue there is a pit town. It's mostly farmland, expensive coastal regions or the north, which should be more Plaid than Tory in theory. Oh and Rhyl, which is full of plastic Mancs and Scousers than Welsh people.

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Just now, Mudface said:

Ethnic nationalism is the problem, the SNP promotes civic nationalism. This blog explains it pretty well-

 

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/scottish-nationalism-stands-apart-from-other-secessionist-movements-for-being-civic-in-origin-rather-than-ethnic/

 

 

 

Flag humping of any sort is a complete waste of time for developed western countries.

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