Scottish Independence, yay or nay?

[Jose Jones]

I reckon the fuck up of the Eurozone - rather ironically with a large hand played by the Scottish banks - has scuppered the timing of the independence bid.  

The Scots before could have looked at Ireland 5 years ago and thought we can do that, still very dependent on trade with the UK, but an independent state as part of Europe and a booming economy.  Now with Ireland, Greece, Spain, etc, all economic basket cases there is a greater fear factor of going it alone I reckon.

Ideally Scotland could be like Norway.  Making a load of money from oil and gas, in Europe but not the Euro.  Sound social structures and what not.

I'll be interested to read the actual proposals - and what the hell do they want to keep the Royal Family for?

[s(k)aturation]

And its bugged me all along...this thread should be called Scottish Independence, aye or no

 

Shouldn't it be "och aye", for those totally in favour?

[Champ]

Shouldn't it be "och aye", for those totally in favour?

 

Only people impersonating Scots say Och aye

[Champ]

I reckon the fuck up of the Eurozone - rather ironically with a large hand played by the Scottish banks - has scuppered the timing of the independence bid.  

The Scots before could have looked at Ireland 5 years ago and thought we can do that, still very dependent on trade with the UK, but an independent state as part of Europe and a booming economy.  Now with Ireland, Greece, Spain, etc, all economic basket cases there is a greater fear factor of going it alone I reckon.

Ideally Scotland could be like Norway.  Making a load of money from oil and gas, in Europe but not the Euro.  Sound social structures and what not.

I'll be interested to read the actual proposals - and what the hell do they want to keep the Royal Family for?

 

Very strange one that. The Queen's diamond jubilee was a complete non event here. People who found themselves in England over that weekend returned shaking their heads in bewilderment

[Champ]

And yet 17% of Scots voted Tory in the last election...the Nats got 20%

The LibDems have 11 seats and 19% of the vote so 38% of the supposedly disenfranchised Scottish electorate voted for one of the parties that form the government

The North East voted broadly in the same way

I certainly wouldn't deny that Cameron is a fucking cunt but talk of imperialist titles is just nonsense

I'd like to see a federal system set up in the Uk with 9 regions in England and Wales, Scotland and NI all having their own Assemblies.

Works ok in the US, Germany and Australia 

 

But that was before they bent over for a little taste of power. There is a long tradition of what was 'liberalism', and its brand left of centre politics, in rural Scotland reflected in that vote. It would be fascinating to know how that vote would look if they knew then what we all know now

[Hand Shandy]

Very strange one that. The Queen's diamond jubilee was a complete non event here. People who found themselves in England over that weekend returned shaking their heads in bewilderment

You're right, that is strange.

 

After all, the Scots love the royal family.

 

'Flower of Scotland' is a love sing to the English monarchy...

[Hand Shandy]

Song!

 

Predictive text is the bane of my life!

[s(k)aturation]

Only people impersonating Scots say Och aye

 

Which is what I was doing.

 

Besides, aren't you impersonating a Scot?

[Champ]

You're right, that is strange.

 

After all, the Scots love the royal family.

 

'Flower of Scotland' is a love sing to the English monarchy...

 

I fucking hate that backward looking, gaining your self respect from getting one over your neighbours dirge

[Hand Shandy]

Really? I quite like it.

 

It's a damn sight better than God Save The Queen!

[Champ]

Only people impersonating Scots say Och aye

 

Fair dos. As I am always saying...there's no tone in type

[Champ]

Really? I quite like it.

 

It's a damn sight better than God Save The Queen!

 

For a country that claims to want to forge its own identity its a strange choice.

 

Granted, but surely there must be a third option

[Magellan06]

It still needs to be clarified 'what is meant by independence' If it means total independence then fine, they can vote witch-ever way they want and good luck to them. But if they think they can still be subsidised by the UK then we should tell them to fuck right off. How can three million taxpayers pay for a national education system, health system, defence, police and justice system and all the other parts of a nations infrastructure? They can't! the thirty odd million taxpayers of the UK are struggling to keep their heads above water, so they've no chance, but they're free to give it a go if they want.

[chrisbonnie]

I haven't read through the whole thread. So im hoping nobody has said this already.

 

But are England just going to let Scotland be in their own, and then let them keep all the oil in the north Sea?

 

Surely not. Then there's the naval base where all the British nuclear submarines are docked. I suppose the English will just hand that facility over as well?

 

It'll never happen

 

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Anny Road]

The one thing that does concern me as a pro independence resident of Scotland is that Westminster is not against us at the minute.

 

The minute Scotland goes independent the English will at every opportunity, take actions which will have the effect of proving, in their opinion, what a colossal mistake the Scots have made.

I keep saying this to my Scottish mates. Don't think London will just roll over and give you the oil, a fair debt settlement, reduced tax levels,close Trident bases whilst letting you keep the pound and use of the UK defence deterrent. There will be a price to be paid and by fuck they will make us pay for it. The Scots have not had to deal with the English as a competitor for many a year and it does not usually end well for them.

[RedRazor]

The one thing that does concern me as a pro independence resident of Scotland is that Westminster is not against us at the minute.

 

The minute Scotland goes independent the English will at every opportunity, take actions which will have the effect of proving, in their opinion, what a colossal mistake the Scots have made.

I keep saying this to my Scottish mates. Don't think London will just roll over and give you the oil, a fair debt settlement, reduced tax levels,close Trident bases whilst letting you keep the pound and use of the UK defence deterrent. There will be a price to be paid and by fuck they will make us pay for it. The Scots have not had to deal with the English as a competitor for many a year and it does not usually end well for them.

Exactly.

 

Westminster will attempt to screw you to the floor. Provisional figures I;ve seen for the structural debt you will inherit is about £60bn. (which seems a bit low)

 

Don't see that they would have any choice other than to withdraw from the Clyde if the new government told them to though.

 

If you want to use the pound as your currency then the BoE will want their pound of flesh.

 

Not sure what will happen about the oil but you won't get it all.

 

I'm not a Scot so really don't care too much but I hope you don't go independent. But if you really don't want to stay I would be more than happy to hold the door open for you. As long as the price of Tartan Shortbread doesn't go through the roof because it is then considered an imported luxery item.

 

Would they still hold the British Open at the R&A?

 

It would be very interesting if Scotland joined the EU and signed up for Schengen. We would have to have border controls.

[Paulie Dangerously]

Is the jock on the street going to vote yes because they think it's best for Scotland or vote yes because 'Fuck you England' do you think?

[General Dryness]

Is the jock on the street going to vote yes because they think it's best for Scotland or vote yes because 'Fuck you England' do you think?

 

I believe option B will be favourite.

[Champ]

Is the jock on the street going to vote yes because they think it's best for Scotland or vote yes because 'Fuck you England' do you think?

  

I believe option B will be favourite.

Maybe not quite the choice of phrase of phrase, PD, because I dont think there is any Fuck you England about it; its about people seeing their identity as Scottish and not British and wanting the right to make their own choices about how their country is run

[lifetime fan]

Scottish independence: White Paper at-a-glance

Scotland's First Minister Alex Salmond has outlined the case for independence.

The Scottish government has published a 649-page blueprint for how it believes Scotland could operate after independence, and if the SNP was elected in 2016.

BBC Scotland's correspondents and reporters take a more detailed look at the plan and what a "Yes vote" in next year's referendum could mean for the economy, health, pensions, education, defence, justice, the environment and the media.

Finance and economy

The White Paper says Scotland has strong economic foundations and as an independent country would tailor its economic policies to Scottish businesses and industry.

In an independent Scotland, an SNP government would:

• Set out a timescale for reducing corporation tax of up to 3% to stimulate economic activity and to retain and attract new investment.
• Reduce Air Passenger Duty by 50% and introduce a simpler tax system to reduce costs and cut down on tax avoidance.
• Retain the pound and the Bank of England as the lender of last resort.
• Hold negotiations on Scotland's share of public sector debt and UK assets.

More details from BBC Scotland's business reporter Gillian Marles.

Health, Wellbeing and Social Protection

The White Paper says in an independent Scotland pensioners would be better off.

In an independent Scotland, an SNP government would:

• Increase state pensions by inflation, earnings or 2.5%, whichever is higher.
• Increase the state pension age to 66 in 2020 (in line with the rest of the UK) but an independent commission would advise on any changes after that.
• End housing benefit changes - what it calls the "bedroom tax" - within the first year of an independent Scottish Parliament and halt the rollout of the single, Universal Credit for the unemployed.
• Continue free personal and nursing care and free bus passes for the elderly.
• Increase the minimum wage in line with inflation and promote a "Scottish living wage".
• Have the power to ban adverts for unhealthy foods and to tax unhealthy foods (a "fat tax") - but there was no specific commitment.
• Say there are no significant barriers to Scotland achieving Olympic and Paralympic accreditation.

More details from BBC Scotland's health correspondent Eleanor Bradford.

Education, Skills and Employment

The White Paper argues the full powers of independence could make a big difference to the overall education system - especially the role of the education system in lifting people out of poverty and helping them into employment.

In an independent Scotland, an SNP government would:

• Integrate government's approach to education with wider social policies such as taxation and benefits to help address child poverty.
• Extend support available to young children and their families to expand childcare provision.
• Transform the childcare system to match the best in Europe - by the end of the first parliament, it would ensure all three and four-year-olds and vulnerable two-year-olds were entitled to 1,140 hours of childcare a year.
• Maintain free tuition for Scottish students studying in Scotland but charge fees for students from the rest of the UK.
• Maintain a "common research area" across the UK between universities.

More information from BBC Scotland's education correspondent Jamie McIvor.

International Relations and Defence

The White Paper says an independent Scotland would have have its own voice in the United Nations, Nato, the Council of Europe, the Commonwealth and others.

In an independent Scotland, an SNP government would:

• Remove Trident nuclear weapons from the Clyde by 2020.
• Seek a closer relationship with the Nordic Council of Ministers.
• Establish a network of overseas embassies in locations including Beijing, Islamabad, Seoul and Washington.
• Legally commit to spending 0.7% of gross national income on international aid, with an aspiration to spend 1% over time.
• Establish a Scottish Defence Force consisting of of 15,000 full-time personnel and 5,000 reservists.
• Retain Faslane naval base as a conventional naval base and joint HQ of the Scottish Defence Force.

More information from BBC Scotland reporter Steven Godden.

Justice, Security and Home Affairs

The White Paper outlines the choices open to an independent Scotland in the justice system.

In an independent Scotland, an SNP government would:

• Maintain human rights.
• Look at simplifying firearms legislation.
• Consider giving police new powers to conduct random breath tests, "any time, any where".
• Designate the Appeal Court in Edinburgh as Scotland's Supreme Court.
• Develop closer relationships with EU and NATO agencies engaged in cyber security.
• Keep the Scottish borders would remain open to all EU nationals, as an EU member.
• Establish a Scottish Asylum Agency to oversee applications, taking a robust and humane approach.
• Close Dungavel Detention Centre in Lanarkshire and end dawn raids.
• Consider British citizens habitually resident in Scotland as Scottish citizens.
• Make citizenship by descent available to those whose parent or grandparent qualifies for Scottish citizenship.
• Permit dual citizenship with the UK.
• Recognise UK passports until their expiry date.

More details from BBC Scotland's home affairs correspondent Reevel Alderson.

Environment, Energy and Resources

The White Paper says Scotland is blessed with an abundance of natural resources that can bring prosperity and ensure the global challenges of the 21st century are met.

In an independent Scotland, an SNP government would:

• Retain a single UK-wide market for electricity and gas.
• Establish a Scottish Energy Fund.
• Make no changes to the oil and gas fiscal regime without consultation (The Scottish government says it has no plans to increase the overall tax burden on the oil industry).
• Give Scotland a voice in negotiations on agriculture and fisheries, through direct representation in Europe.

More information from BBC Scotland's environment correspondent David Miller.

Culture, Communities and Digital

Culture and heritage are already devolved and the Scottish government sees it as an enduring and powerful asset to be developed under independence.

In an independent Scotland, an SNP government would:

• Establish a Scottish Broadcasting Service (SBS) - initially founded on staffing and resources of BBC Scotland - which would provide TV, radio and online content and begin broadcasting at the beginning of 2017.
• Create a formal relationship between BBC and SBS to supply the same level of network programming - so Doctor Who and Eastenders would continue.
• Retain current TV licence fee and exemptions.
• Fully honour existing licences for broadcasters in Scotland.
• Bring Royal Mail back into public ownership.
• Improve geographic coverage in telecommunications, particularly in remote rural areas.
• Continue the National Lottery in Scotland.

[Champ]

Who on here wouldnt vote for that, you mean?

 

There's some good stats and stuff on the beeb site

[General Dryness]

Maybe not quite the choice of phrase of phrase, PD, because I dont think there is any Fuck you England about it; its about people seeing their identity as Scottish and not British and wanting the right to make their own choices about how their country is run

Right, so its "we'll make our own choices about how our country is run. And fuck you, by the way".

[Anny Road]

Bit of a wish list rather than a manifesto to be honest. Don't know how they will go about half of it without the cooperation of a Tory English government. Years and years of bickering to follow I suspect.

[Champ]

The Tories seem ominously quiet on the matter

[Paulie Dangerously]

I was just wondering because the couple of sweaties I know have been posting pics of the St George's flag crossed out, union Jack without the English influence etc on social media dir about a year so to them it's very much fuck you England

 

I appreciate it's not an accurate cross section