Spare room tax

[Rico1304]

I am a trainer in a law firm.

 

What do you do?

 

Nobody said it was easy to do. Just needs a little more thought and somebody within power to actually make a stand against capitalism. Just capitalism likes to make a stand against anything that it disagrees with or wants to take off somebody else.

 

I'm a Commercial Manager for a utility company working in the smart metering programme. One of the contracts I'm responsible for is Vodafone.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

I'm a Commercial Manager for a utility company working in the smart metering programme. One of the contracts I'm responsible for is Vodafone.

 

Ah, explains your defence of Vodafone.

[Rico1304]

Ah, explains your defence of Vodafone.

 

Nope, I think they are shit.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Oh I concur. I worked for them once.

[Champ]

Right, I'm sort of thinking out loud here about my position, with only limited knowledge (a poor way to rejoin a debate, I know) so dont jump down my throat.

 

Top lines for me are that

 

1)There will always be a need for social housing and that it should be built and maintained to a good standard

 

2) This Spare Room tax or reduction in Council tax appears to be an ill-thought through means of reducing the welfare bill. And once again is another example that none of them can example how you incentivise the poor by reducing their income and incentivise the rich by reducing their tax bill. What this measure has shown up though, not that we didnt know already, is the mess of the housing economy, the availability and cost, both private and social, which gives the lie to underoccupiers of social housing being able make way for families in greater need, regardless of their feelings about having to leave a property they may have lived in most of their adult lives.

 

Through reading this thread, though, I have begun to question my originally stated belief that HB recipients should have that money paid directly to their landlords. Maybe there is no justification for not expecting people to budget their money although I think there should be the option for people to request to have their rent paid directly to their landlords. I'm guessing most landlords would prefer to receive their rent in this way, far less costly or troublesome for them.

 

There has been a lot of debate about who contributes to the rent for social housing. Given that it is social housing it seems reasonable that the rules are different than in the private sector. Now here I'm on stickier ground because I dont know exactly how it works but it would seem reasonable for social housing to be allocated on the basis of means and needs testing and that this should be periodically reviewed and where the housing is assessed to be too big that incentives are offered to enable those who want to move to something smaller. But that is not what this 'change' is about or otherwise there would have been a building and/or regeneration programme put in place to support these changes.

 

Oh, and when is it that the top rate of income tax is reduced again?

[melons]

Regarding leaving social housing -

 

Some people are programmed and conditioned to want more form life, to strive for the better house, the better holidays the better lifestyle i suppose. Not all people have that desire or that need, not all people are driven by commercialism or can even be called materialistic. Some people have just had so much shite thrown at them that all they want is some peace and have a sense of stability, to be able to keep the rent payments, and be happy. At some point life gets easier, kids grow up they have more free cash, but hang on, whats around the corner?

 

People grow up on estates, and quite often don't want to leave them, why should they? Why should they be forced to move away from friends and family, just because they can now afford too?

 

The security a L/A home brings is much more than a private rent, I hope to never be in a position of going into private rent again. Having been made homeless on two occasions it highlights the difference of the tenancies. The only time i'll ever leave a L/A again is when i buy the next one. That's a choice because of my estate - if i lived on a L/A estate in Mid Wales, not a chance in hell you'd see me leave that house.

 

I agree, there is a need to free up social houses that are under-occupied, but not at the cost of booting people out because they can afford the rent or starving them out because they cant.

[RedRazor]

They're at home, washing their tights.

 

 

There's a rather large problem with the bedroom tax in that there's not enough suitable housing stock to go around. The housing association around here says it would take seven years to move everyone to something suitable. So even if people want to move, they face years of 'fines' for something they have no control over.

 

A shekup of some kind was needed though, I don't disagree with that. I just knew these idiots wouldn't be the ones to get it right.

 

Nail on the head Sec.

 

If we accept that there is a finite amount of social housing and an increasing demand for it then I can see the logic in wanting to make best best use of the resources available. Whether or not there should be more is a discussion for another thread.

 

However, the implementation of the "solution" is typical tory approach. If you are living in social housing you must be a benefit scrounger ergo you get hit. As usual the people least able to fight such rules, with least representation get battered.

 

It could be argued that the housing associations should have addressed this issue long ago and it is piss poor that they haven't. But I cannot have too much sympathy with an approach that effectively bullies people out of their homes.

[RedRazor]

Regarding leaving social housing -

 

Some people are programmed and conditioned to want more form life, to strive for the better house, the better holidays the better lifestyle i suppose. Not all people have that desire or that need, not all people are driven by commercialism or can even be called materialistic. Some people have just had so much shite thrown at them that all they want is some peace and have a sense of stability, to be able to keep the rent payments, and be happy. At some point life gets easier, kids grow up they have more free cash, but hang on, whats around the corner?

 

People grow up on estates, and quite often don't want to leave them, why should they? Why should they be forced to move away from friends and family, just because they can now afford too?

 

The security a L/A home brings is much more than a private rent, I hope to never be in a position of going into private rent again. Having been made homeless on two occasions it highlights the difference of the tenancies. The only time i'll ever leave a L/A again is when i buy the next one. That's a choice because of my estate - if i lived on a L/A estate in Mid Wales, not a chance in hell you'd see me leave that house.

 

I agree, there is a need to free up social houses that are under-occupied, but not at the cost of booting people out because they can afford the rent or starving them out because they cant.

 

This doesn't make any sense in English, maybe it does in Welsh.

 

If they can afford to pay the "bedroom tax" they don't need to move anywhere.

 

(please neg me now rather than trying to sneak one in at the end like an internet ninja ultra vixen)

 

You state that you feel more secure in HA/LA accomodation than privately rented - why should you? It isn't there to provide you with any sense of security - it is there to fulfill a social need isn't it? What is so special about your needs that warrant this additional sense of security that other people in similar situations don't deserve?

 

Give me wave when you are on Jeremy Kyle.

[Tyler Durden]

If they had set this up to come in over the next 5-10 years I don't think as many people would have a problem with it because they could have put a programme of house building into action creating 1 and 2 bed homes to catch the suitable families

[VladimirIlyich]

 

This doesn't make any sense in English' date=' maybe it does in Welsh.

 

If they can afford to pay the "bedroom tax" they don't need to move anywhere.

 

(please neg me now rather than trying to sneak one in at the end like an internet ninja ultra vixen)

 

You state that you feel more secure in HA/LA accomodation than privately rented - why should you? It isn't there to provide you with any sense of security - it is there to fulfill a social need isn't it? What is so special about your needs that warrant this additional sense of security that other people in similar situations don't deserve?

 

Give me wave when you are on Jeremy Kyle.[/quote']

 

I'd guess Melons security comes from the fact there is less chance of her and her family being thrown onto the streets in social housing due to the protection that comes from the legislation covering it.

Also she is most probably able to afford the rent and its the type of accomodation that is right for her and her income level.

 

Housing should and maybe does come as a right alongside free health and education and its a real shame that its not viewed I this way anymore as almost all the people who realisd how important they are and who were around before they were a right have all passed away.

Fortunately they passed away at ages much older than a lot of their friends and family who never saw their fight for a Welfare State come to light due to the Welfare State simply not being there.

 

If there were a real independent panel making decisions on situations like this, a proposal like the bedroom tax would be dismissed in an instant but as its part of an agenda rather than a real attempt at reform its just a complete shambles.

[Section_31]

The construction industry has contracted by 7% or some shit this past year too, not that there's any lack of joined up thinking here or anything.

[Strontium]

Phase housing benefit out over 7 years, stop giving landlords all our fucking money and inflating rents and house prices and get a real free market into this thing, then use some of the money saved on a massive housebuilding programme

 

Rents and property prices would plummet if you did that, which is why no government will do it

[melons]

This doesn't make any sense in English, maybe it does in Welsh.

 

If they can afford to pay the "bedroom tax" they don't need to move anywhere.

 

(please neg me now rather than trying to sneak one in at the end like an internet ninja ultra vixen)

 

You state that you feel more secure in HA/LA accomodation than privately rented - why should you? It isn't there to provide you with any sense of security - it is there to fulfill a social need isn't it? What is so special about your needs that warrant this additional sense of security that other people in similar situations don't deserve?

 

Give me wave when you are on Jeremy Kyle.

 

Oi, odious twat arse, if I want to neg you and call you a twat i will do, but i'll also do it in public I dare say you wouldn't have the balls to use that last sentence to me in the real world. An yeah, negged, with the word twat.

Edit: i would if i didn't have to spread - I'll get back to you.

 

Read the thread - you might have realised what i was responding too, the discussion on this thread has moved on, Rico was suggesting that people who can afford to leave L/A housing should be made to do so. Keep up.

 

L/A offers a secure tenancy, and it is there to do that, if you've read your tenancy agreement you'd know that. You might have missed it if you've still got that silver spoon shoved up your arse.

 

Everybody should have the right to the security that social housing offers, I wasn't arguing that my need is greater than any others - I am arguing that L/A often provides better quality housing and more security, in turn an ability to at least see that your kids don't have to shift schools every 6 months. Unlike most land lords.

 

It was developed for that, for working class people who could not afford the often comical rents from the private sector or to own their own home. The margins of society have moved, along with that so has property ownership this is making home ownership out of reach for many. This lack of housing means many have no choice but to pay the inflated rental market prices. Tory twats however have developed this notion that people shouldn't even have those rights, you know, the right to a home, health and an education, well unless you deserve one and can pay for it. If that is your view, then quite frankly, could you only go fuck yourself so you never breed? Thanks.

[bossy]

Well said Melons.

[lifetime fan]

Government have u-turned and this will no longer be applicable to foster parents or parents with children who live at home but are over seas serving in the armed forces.

 

Lets see if they back track on giving rent to individuals rather than landlords first, especially after the trial in Wales.

[Champ]

 

Lets see if they back track on giving rent to individuals rather than landlords first' date=' especially after the trial in Wales.[/quote']

 

What am I missing with this one?

[lifetime fan]

What am I missing with this one?

 

 

Massive increase in rent arrears plus it would lead to evictions, homelessness and costs to social housing providers trying to chase rent arrears (which they say would lead to rent increases).

[lifetime fan]

Tenants' rent arrears soar in pilot benefit scheme

 

 

Rent arrears among tenants on a government pilot project that pays housing benefit directly to recipients have seen a big increase, figures show.

 

One area is predicting a £14m loss if the new system is implemented for all its tenants, the BBC has learned.

 

Paying housing benefit directly to recipients, rather than their landlords, will form a key part of the planned new Universal Credit.

 

The government says lessons will be learned from the pilot projects.

 

It wants to pay recipients directly as they think it will increase their sense of responsibility over their own lives and make them better able to cope should they move into a job.

 

The Department for Work and Pensions has run pilot projects in six areas since last June to see how well tenants would cope with having their housing benefit paid directly to them.

 

Thousands of people have been moved onto the new scheme in the selected areas - Edinburgh, Wakefield, Shropshire, Oxford, Cwmbran and Southwark in south London.

 

Arrears fears

 

Figures obtained by BBC News show that arrears among tenants of Wakefield and District Housing in West Yorkshire have increased from an average of 2% to 11% on the pilot projects.

 

Chief executive Kevin Dodd said he hoped the level of arrears would fall as they made efforts to help tenants better manage their money.

 

But even taking that into account, he told the BBC: "If you roll that out to 31,000 tenancies we will be increasing our bad debt provision by a further £2-3m a year."

 

Bron Afon community housing in south Wales said it had seen a 50% increase in arrears, while pilot projects in Edinburgh, Oxford and Southwark are showing around 30% increases in arrears.

 

Southwark Council predicts it will incur £14m in arrears if direct payment is introduced to all their tenants.

 

"People have clocked up arrears who were not in arrears before," says Duncan Forbes, chief executive of Bron Afon.

 

"And the worry is will they panic, will they stop paying, will they feel they've lost control and end up being evicted."

 

One tenant failing to cope is Margaret Tonks, a single mother from Broseley, Shropshire.

 

She approached her local Citizens Advice Bureau (CAB) after using some of her housing benefit to pay for gas and electricity and has now built up arrears.

 

"I do not know why they moved me to the new scheme," she said. "I hardly have enough money to live day-to-day.

 

"By them paying the money directly to me it created temptation to use it for other things which has resulted in me being in arrears and possibly being evicted. "

 

Staffing costs

 

It is a story familiar to Andrea Thomas, a CAB manager in Cwmbran, south Wales. Several local tenants on the direct payments project have needed help to cope with the new system, all with mental health problems.

 

"The reality that we found is that the most vulnerable people in society… they simply cannot cope with it," she said.

 

"So they are the ones at risk of not realising what the money in their bank account is for and going out and spending it."

 

As well as noticing a large increase in arrears, all the pilot projects have seen increases in the costs of getting the rent from the tenants. Some projects have had to double staffing costs as many tenants have been unwilling to pay by direct debit.

 

In Bron Afon, approximately 90% of tenants do not pay by direct debit.

 

"Direct debits are not a good way of paying if you are on very low incomes," says Duncan Forbes.

 

"If a direct debit is due and there is no money in the bank, it can cost you £30-£40 as a penalty."

 

None of the projects the BBC spoke to have any regrets about their involvement in the pilots and many talk about the willingness of their tenants to engage with them.

 

But the reality for all of them is that their incomes have fallen and their costs have increased, leading to greater uncertainty for both them and their tenants.

 

The Department for Work and Pensions said it has helped the pilots to learn lessons and ensure the scheme is effectively implemented.

 

Minister Steve Webb said: "We currently pay housing benefit directly to one million people in the private sector and that works pretty well.

 

"We are trying to treat people in council houses the same way, but we want to get it right."

[Champ]

 

Massive increase in rent arrears plus it would lead to evictions' date=' homelessness and costs to social housing providers trying to chase rent arrears (which they say would lead to rent increases).[/quote']

 

Nah, I meant what are the Tories getting out of it. Can only see it heaping misery on tenants (which they're not bothered about) and pissing off landlords (which you wouldn't expect they'd want)

[lifetime fan]

Nah, I meant what are the Tories getting out of it. Can only see it heaping misery on tenants (which they're not bothered about) and pissing off landlords (which you wouldn't expect they'd want)

 

 

Fuck only knows.

 

Even Grant Shapps (a tory fucking minister) has stated Cameron was wrong to state disabled children would automatically be protected.

[Champ]

 

Fuck only knows.

 

Even Grant Shapps (a tory fucking minister) has stated Cameron was wrong to state disabled children would automatically be protected.

 

They just have no fucking clue about the world most people live in...and care less

[RedRazor]

Oi, odious twat arse, if I want to neg you and call you a twat i will do, but i'll also do it in public I dare say you wouldn't have the balls to use that last sentence to me in the real world. An yeah, negged, with the word twat.

Edit: i would if i didn't have to spread - I'll get back to you.

 

Read the thread - you might have realised what i was responding too, the discussion on this thread has moved on, Rico was suggesting that people who can afford to leave L/A housing should be made to do so. Keep up.

 

L/A offers a secure tenancy, and it is there to do that, if you've read your tenancy agreement you'd know that. You might have missed it if you've still got that silver spoon shoved up your arse.

 

Everybody should have the right to the security that social housing offers, I wasn't arguing that my need is greater than any others - I am arguing that L/A often provides better quality housing and more security, in turn an ability to at least see that your kids don't have to shift schools every 6 months. Unlike most land lords.

 

It was developed for that, for working class people who could not afford the often comical rents from the private sector or to own their own home. The margins of society have moved, along with that so has property ownership this is making home ownership out of reach for many. This lack of housing means many have no choice but to pay the inflated rental market prices. Tory twats however have developed this notion that people shouldn't even have those rights, you know, the right to a home, health and an education, well unless you deserve one and can pay for it. If that is your view, then quite frankly, could you only go fuck yourself so you never breed? Thanks.

 

Let's examine the facts.

 

In an unrelated thread you attributed a direct quote to me that was particularly vile and unpleasant. When challenged you subsequently corrected your mistake, apologised but then negged me anyway. I have learned to live with the shame and stigma your actions have brought.

 

In this thread you attribute a statement to Rico which he explicitly states is not what he is saying.

 

Then you suggest that I try to keep up with the thread. Oh dear. You seem to be making a habit of this. Maybe you should read threads a little more caerphilly.

 

Now consider your experience of private landlords. Any private landlords I have met have been extremely keen to keep hold of decent tenants who pay their rent. But this is not your experience. It makes me wonder why. However, I'm sure you will have a hard luck story that will have the Jeremy Kyle audience weeping into their hankies.

 

Keep on negging and I'm sure my turn will come around soon enough.

[lifetime fan]

Let's examine the facts.

 

In an unrelated thread you attributed a direct quote to me that was particularly vile and unpleasant. When challenged you subsequently corrected your mistake, apologised but then negged me anyway. I have learned to live with the shame and stigma your actions have brought.

 

In this thread you attribute a statement to Rico which he explicitly states is not what he is saying.

 

Then you suggest that I try to keep up with the thread. Oh dear. You seem to be making a habit of this. Maybe you should read threads a little more caerphilly.

 

Now consider your experience of private landlords. Any private landlords I have met have been extremely keen to keep hold of decent tenants who pay their rent. But this is not your experience. It makes me wonder why. However, I'm sure you will have a hard luck story that will have the Jeremy Kyle audience weeping into their hankies.

 

Keep on negging and I'm sure my turn will come around soon enough.

 

 

I've lived in privately rented accomodation for 14 years...I've had 2 excellent landlords in that time (and I mean excellent!) and the rest have been absolute wankers.

 

I've never been a day late let alone missed a months rent, look after the house and garden etc.

 

No wonder these cunt landlords are happy with regular paying tennants as they spend fuck all on the upkeep of their properties and are making money hand over fist every single month.

 

Your comment about jeremy kyle was a cheap, nasty shot. You don't like her? Fair enough. Call Melons a cunt, I'm sure she can live with it but that comment was to deliberately make out she was below you and some kind of under class scum.

 

No need at all.

[Rico1304]

Melons is ace, despite living in a place called Wales. Carry on.

[lifetime fan]

Melons is ace, despite living in a place called Wales. Carry on.

 

 

Big tits too.