Summer 2013 Transfer Thread

[therevivalist]

Only Chelsea and City have outspent us over the last 10 years. We've spent more than United/Arsenal/Spurs.

 

We outspent the Scum?? Doubt it. But it's true only Chelsea and now City have spent more than us. But it's always the ownership to blame for our under performance.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

We outspent the Scum?? Doubt it.

 

I've said it before, but the most damned fact is that since we narrowly finished 2nd to them in 2009, we've outspent them (both gross and net spend). They've won 3 of the last 5 league titles and we've vanished into the abyss.

[Barrington Womble]

 

I've said it before' date=' but the most damned fact is that since we narrowly finished 2nd to them in 2009, we've outspent them (both gross and net spend). They've won 3 of the last 5 league titles and we've vanished into the abyss.[/quote']

 

But their wage bill is miles bigger than ours and we keep letting players go for next to nothing to get them off the wage bill. Or do only transfer fees count and wages are just a little annoyance?

[Jose Jones]

But their wage bill is miles bigger than ours and we keep letting players go for next to nothing to get them off the wage bill. Or do only transfer fees count and wages are just a little annoyance?

True. We have defo wasted a lot of money though.

[Brownie]

Overall he hasn't been good enough (Downing) but I think people grossly exaggerate it. I think he's been okay but that's just not what you want from a £20M player.

 

If Coutinho cost £20M and Downing cost £8M, no-one would have a problem with him.

 

It is a shame that we didn't sign Mata when you look back on it now.

[Barrington Womble]

True. We have defo wasted a lot of money though.

 

We have waste money, but the club has been a shambles for years off the pitch. Many times we've had to sell to buy and then just downgraded because differing politics have been playing out, if that was rafa with purslow, hodgson with the local mice and the weird setup we had with Kenny and commoli and not helped by not being prepared for the 50m that came in for Torres.

[Brownie]

Hopefully Borini will be next. His lack of ability actually hurts my eyes.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

But their wage bill is miles bigger than ours and we keep letting players go for next to nothing to get them off the wage bill. Or do only transfer fees count and wages are just a little annoyance?

 

I don't mind you talking mental, Bazzle, but do you have to do it with such a condescending tone? It's not really going to get the debate off on the right foot, is it? Anyway, I fail to see why you're raising this point now. It's not like it changes anything I've said or diminishes the points I made. If anything, the opposite is true.

 

For most of the time period I mentioned, bar the most recently released set of league wage stats (which is 2011/12), the difference between the two club's wage spending has been around the same. Actually, the biggest swing in wage spending was our own increase in 2010, which closed the gap in wage spending by almost 40%. Yet we went from 2nd to 7th.

 

In 2008/09 - again, the year we narrowly finished second to them - the difference was £16m in wage spending. That actually lessened to £11m in 2009/10, but we finished 7th. In 2010/11, probably due to win bonuses as they won the league again, they difference went up to £18m, which is just £2m more than the difference in 08/09. They finished first, we finished sixth. The reason for their dominance (not just over us, but other clubs with bigger wage bills) in these years wasn't the difference in wage spending.

 

So unless you're claiming that the £2m increase in overall wage difference over the space of three season (08/09 - 09/10 - 10/11) is the reason for them winning in two out of three of them, I fail to see why I'd be annoyed or why it's even relevant.

 

We've wasted wages just as much - actually, that's wrong - we've wasted even more on wages than we've wasted transfer fees. Now that's an annoyance. Not only have we wasted mega-money outspending them in the transfer market, but we paid the wasters we bought a shit load of money.

 

They've not only got better value in the transfer market, they've got better value for their money in wages (which, btw, includes win bonuses. We don't have to pay many of those).

 

Of course our wage bill is lower now, we have had to trim it because of all the fucking shit players we were paying £100k to whilst still being out of the league. We're now only the fifth biggest wage spenders (United are 3rd). It wasn't 'miles' bigger than ours over that entire time, though. We actually have a significantly larger wage to turnover ratio. We have 70% and they have 50%.

 

Had we spend our wages maintaining a squad with Mascherano, Alonso, et al, rather than spending it on wonky-eyed Italians and fat, chain-smoking Cockneys, we'd be doing better on the pitch. What's for sure, though, is that getting those total wasters off the wage-bill in an effort to sort rebuild the squad isn't the reason we're where we are. Nor is the difference in wage spending, especially when it was so modestly different over most of that time.

 

Overall he hasn't been good enough (Downing) but I think people grossly exaggerate it. I think he's been okay but that's just not what you want from a £20M player.

 

I don't think it's much over-exagerrated. He went from useless, to trying hard but still not really doing anything, and back to fairly useless again. As I've always said, he's not 'shit', he's just average and bland. I don't even mind him as a guy, I think it's the missed opportunities that I resent the most. Like many, I probably aim that at Downing despite it not being his fault. Though, being fairly useless for most of his time is.

 

We have waste money, but the club has been a shambles for years off the pitch. Many times we've had to sell to buy and then just downgraded because differing politics have been playing out, if that was rafa with purslow, hodgson with the local mice and the weird setup we had with Kenny and commoli and not helped by not being prepared for the 50m that came in for Torres.

 

Yep, these are some of the things that have allowed the mistakes in recruitment to happen, as well as just plain bad judgment from experienced football managers and DoFs. I think we've seen a real effort to try to correct those problems, though. Would you agree that the way we're going about it now is a distinct improvement?

 

Hopefully Borini will be next. His lack of ability actually hurts my eyes.

 

I think he has shown his ability in Italy and for Italy. He also showed it at the end of last season. What he needs to do is show that ability for us on a consistent basis. Even if it's just from the bench like at the end of last season.

[El Rojo]

Hopefully Borini will be next. His lack of ability actually hurts my eyes.

 

If there's serious interest in him, we should follow it up.

 

He's often garlanded with platitudes on here about his work rate and his movement. Neither matters much if he can't actually score goals or stay fit. It's embarrassing to hear him compared to Dirk. Of course there's a chance he'll improve, but how many players have we deceived ourselves about like that over the years?

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

If there's serious interest in him, we should follow it up.

 

He's often garlanded with platitudes on here about his work rate and his movement. Neither matters much if he can't actually score goals or stay fit. It's embarrassing to hear him compared to Dirk. Of course there's a chance he'll improve, but how many players have we deceived ourselves about like that over the years?

 

I don't think many are lauding him. I think it's just the fact that he's only started five league games and has been out for most of the only season he's been here. We should really give him a chance to show what he can do with a run of games (even if it's from the bench or in the cups) under his belt. After all, it's not like he hasn't performed well for Roma or this summer for Italy at the U21s.

 

It appears that to some (not you), asking for a chance to see what he can do is tantamount to saying he's been amazing. He clearly hasn't been amazing. He is a young player, though, who hasn't had much of a chance yet.

[Brownie]

I don't think it's much over-exagerrated. He went from useless, to trying hard but still not really doing anything, and back to fairly useless again. As I've always said, he's not 'shit', he's just average and bland. I don't even mind him as a guy, I think it's the missed opportunities that I resent the most. Like many, I probably aim that at Downing despite it not being his fault. Though, being fairly useless for most of his time is.

 

I think he has shown his ability in Italy and for Italy. He also showed it at the end of last season. What he needs to do is show that ability for us on a consistent basis. Even if it's just from the bench like at the end of last season.

 

I think saying Downing has been useless is exaggerating. You could say the same thing about him that you have about Borini - i.e. showed ability in the Premier League (player of the season for Villa when they were decent, quite a few England caps etc). The truth is, they're both not good enough although Downing is a much better player than Borini for me (completely different positions notwithstanding).

 

If I had a choice, i'd certainly be binning Borini off before Downing although i'd want both of them gone pretty much as soon as possible.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I think saying Downing has been useless is exaggerating.

 

In his first season, he was pretty useless. Wasn't he? By useless, I mean that he didn't really do anything of note at all. He did improve, but he was still like a packet of salt n' shake without the little blue packet. I'm not asking to be entertained like Coutinho and Suarez offer (although, for £20m...) but some effectiveness would be nice.

 

You could say the same thing about him that you have about Borini - i.e. showed ability in the Premier League (player of the season for Villa when they were decent, quite a few England caps etc). The truth is, they're both not good enough although Downing is a much better player than Borini for me (completely different positions notwithstanding).

 

If I had a choice, i'd certainly be binning Borini off before Downing although i'd want both of them gone pretty much as soon as possible.

 

Rather than 'truth', I'd say it's opinion. Mine is that Downing had many seasons of mediocrity behind him, Borini has started five league games for us and did well for the rest of his career at Chelsea as a kid, at Roma, at Swansea on loan, and for Italy U21s. I think that warrants a bit more time. Downing has two full seasons behind him for LFC, and 65 Premier League appearances for the club. He's had his chances, and had them late on in his career. He's 29. Borini had just turned 21 when he joined and got injured for most of the season. I'd say we should give him the season. If absolutely nothing happens, then I'll be saying what you are now.

[El Rojo]

I don't think many are lauding him. I think it's just the fact that he's only started five league games and has been out for most of the only season he's been here. We should really give him a chance to show what he can do with a run of games (even if it's from the bench or in the cups) under his belt. After all, it's not like he hasn't performed well for Roma or this summer for Italy at the U21s.

 

It appears that to some (not you), asking for a chance to see what he can do is tantamount to saying he's been amazing. He clearly hasn't been amazing. He is a young player, though, who hasn't had much of a chance yet.

 

I appreciate where you're coming from, but he's shown absolutely nothing for us for us, absolutely nothing at all.

 

Usually I'd be in agreement that a young player should have every opportunity, but we paid £11m that it seems an Italian club (Parma?) were willing to give us back most of. I've no agenda with this beyond wanting to see the club succeed - for example, I expect much better things from Allen this season.

 

I'd agree with Brownie that I'd be looking to ditch him before Downing, who played a solid role after Christmas last year. Will gladly devour my hat on this one, but I don't think Borini has it in him to put it on my plate.

 

All that said, we shouldn't be getting rid of either if we don't have better replacements lined up.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I just don't get the logic behind keeping a 29 player on lots of money, who has shown very little in his Liverpool career, before a young player who has shown lots of ability before he joined and got injured after just 5 league games. If I was gambling on who'd be more likely to improve, I'd go with the younger player who has shown it before rather than a 29 year old who has done very little. Ever.

 

Still, Borini isn't going anywhere. Downing might be. We're in agreement that we should get a replacement. I figure that's Diego Costa. Let's all rejoice at that possibility and hug in agreement!

[Brownie]

In his first season, he was pretty useless. Wasn't he? By useless, I mean that he didn't really do anything of note at all. He did improve, but he was still like a packet of salt n' shake without the little blue packet. I'm not asking to be entertained like Coutinho and Suarez offer (although, for £20m...) but some effectiveness would be nice.

 

 

 

Rather than 'truth', I'd say it's opinion. Mine is that Downing had many seasons of mediocrity behind him, Borini has started five league games for us and did well for the rest of his career at Chelsea as a kid, at Roma, at Swansea on loan, and for Italy U21s. I think that warrants a bit more time. Downing has two full seasons behind him for LFC, and 65 Premier League appearances for the club. He's had his chances, and had them late on in his career. He's 29. Borini had just turned 21 when he joined and got injured for most of the season. I'd say we should give him the season. If absolutely nothing happens, then I'll be saying what you are now.

 

I'm all for giving people a chance mate, as evidenced when we signed Downing and everyone wrote him off before he kicked a ball. They may have been proven right ultimately but I think you have to see a player with a red shirt on before you can really have any kind of informed view about how he'll go.

 

It's true that Borini has not had many games at all but it's not sharpness that worries me, it's the fact that any time the ball goes near him he treats it almost as if it's a WMD. It's too early to completely judge him but he's clearly behind a lot of other players at the club (or about to join) so it seems a bit pointless to keep him.

[Randy Marsh]

I wouldn't say Downing has been shit. He has just been Downing, as he has been right through his career, mediocre, solid enough for a mid table side, with the odd bit of skill or promise drowned in a sea of averageness.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

it's the fact that any time the ball goes near him he treats it almost as if it's a WMD.

 

That is an issue. He snatches at it. I don't like the 'trying to hard' excuse much, but he's just so desperate to score and do well that he's fluffing it. Strange, though, when he was playing for Italy he wasn't like that. He was confident and scored some very good goals.

 

He was like that coming back at the end of last season. He looked more relaxed, struck a good goal against Newcastle that had good movement and instinctive finishing, which is what he game has been about. He then played really well against Fulham, with a cracking drop of the shoulder to beat his player and hit the post. I thought, lovely, this is the player I knew was in there (even if I said at the time we signed him that the fee was too steep).

 

Then he went on to the U21s, played as well as anybody else in the Italy side, making the team of the Tournament and scoring 2 in 3. That's enough for me to give him more of a shout in the side. Unfortunately, pre-season has been a bit uneasy for him. Like he's rushing again. I think he needs to be used from the bench, through the middle. Hopefully that'll get him some confidence and composure - which is all mental. His goal against the Dutch shows a good touch and good finishing, his goal against Spain shows quality movement and good finishing. If he can bring that from the bench, and at just 22 he can still pick up, then I'd very much like to give him that bit of time.

 

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[J-V]

I'm all for giving people a chance mate, as evidenced when we signed Downing and everyone wrote him off before he kicked a ball. They may have been proven right ultimately but I think you have to see a player with a red shirt on before you can really have any kind of informed view about how he'll go.

 

Contrary to popular belief fans do watch players before they sign for Liverpool. Downing has been fucking shit for us and has been his whole career. Anyone with half decent eyesight knew how this transfer would turn out. A no mark player we disgracefully paid £20million for and gave a huge contract to.

[mht1892]

Downing is a fucking shitbag, I've seen more bottle from 16 year old Jordan Rossiter than that useless cunt, £20 million pound for that.

Shambolic signing.

[Dr. J]

It can't be easy writing off another 15 million but it had to be done. End of.

 

The most positive thing is that Sterling seems to have won the job outright - he certainly has looked the part in the pre-season. Downing is Downing - hope he scores against our rivals and plays crap against us.

[Tony Moanero]

Stewart 'Mr Average' Downing.

[ngogswilly]

Well regardless of what people think of Downing, Borini and Skrtel. If we offload all 3 of them we're effectively 3 squad players down. And I'm not sure if we're in a position to be offloading many more at this point.

 

To me, letting go of those 3 makes perfect sense if we have better replacements lined up. But if we're letting player's go just because they're not the best and we want to save on their wages we're going to find ourselves very fucking thin on the ground soon.

[Byrnie]

Tony is Paul Tompkins in disguise. My eyes hurt from scrolling through his posts.

[Byrnie]

£5m for Downing is a great deal, considering his age and the fact that everyone knows he's got no heart. I think he's the most cowardly player I've ever seen play for the club. By no means the worst, but he's a coward who never ever fought for the shirt or could be counted on when the chips were down.

[Tony Moanero]

Ha Ha