Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel

[Section_31]

When a team is set up properly and you've got the right personnel in midfield and full back, your centre backs are literally just the last line of defence. All the little interceptions by the likes of Xabi, Masch, Finnan, Hamann meant our centre backs were never as exposed as they are now. Same goes for the goalie too.

 

Changing personnel isn't going to make a difference. You can't polish a turd.

[ngogswilly]

Putting aside the whole defensive system debate though, how many times though have we been down this road where...If our attacking players had actually managed to put one past the opposition the whole game changes.

 

Whether its chance after chance goes begging, or just a complete and utter failure to break down tightly parked defences. All it serves to do is heap huge amounts of pressure on the defence.

Its not a complete excuse for whats gone on, but its damn sure a fucking factor in our defence shitting itself the first time the opposition gets a chance.

 

Put 2 past the fuckers in the first half when you have your chances and the whole outlook changes.

 

We've been sucker punched so many times over the past 2/3 years its become a horrendous fucking joke.

[Gym Beglin]

Wholesale changes? Change Pacoe for Clarke and dross like Agger and Skrtel will suddenly be able to defend like they were world class players a la Olsson and Macauley.

 

Dont go ringing the Clarke bell just because they beat us. He contributed fuck all to that win, fuck all. They should have been obliterated. At one point towards the end of the first half there was a close up of Clarke on the sideline and I actually felt sorry for him, his team weren't in the game at all, just totally outclassed.

 

Olsson is a fouling cunt who just 'gets away with it', just. He gives away a penalty or two a game but the ref doesnt tend to see it. Utter shithouse.

 

West Brom have also conceded more goals in the league than us this season so you can take your nonsense elsewhere, where facts are overlooked and kneejerk rhetoric rules supreme.

 

Steve Clarke is a very, very average manager, and he was defensive coach at a time when we endured some fucking shocking results last season.

[Gym Beglin]

Lucas was class last night as well, so no excuses for the defence. At one point or another, they have to defend. That's their job, hold the attack up, let our players get back. Couldn't just lean on Lukaku, force him out wide? No, he's like Linford Christie apparently. Odd that he's not been like that against most other defences, I call bullshit, it was bleak from Agger, that was the problem. A knackered Agger tried to get away with it and he got it badly wrong.

 

Lucas, or Hamann, or Mascherano, can't save Agger or Skrtel from every fucking attack, otherwise just play a defence full of fucking defensive midfielders.

[Ranxerox]

What about the other errors though Danny lad?

 

 

 

I've never, ever, been sold on Skrtel as a top class defender. He's mentally very, very fragile and can get traumatised by aggressive attackers.

Agger is a weird one. He's now playing without injury, which is something I thought we'd never see, but he's got a touch of the David Luiz's about him, he's not concentrating for 90 mins, he seems to get bored in defence almost. The way Lukaku stepped past him was atrocious, he may as well have not been there, literally.

 

That said, again another shot just pours through Reina.

 

We're at a stage now where there needs to be wholesale changes. Bit like United in the Summer of 2005 when they went and bought Van Der Sar, Evra, Vidic. Our stability has just gone, we're shaky as fuck and we need to bed some foundations in for the rest of the team to build from. I dont even think Reina's distribution is a feature anymore, in fact there's very little he seems good at now.

 

If we got £10m for each of them, I'd be happy. Which is shocking because we turned down £20m bids for both our centre backs in the Summer, but like the stupid cunts we are, we begged them to sign new contracts. I'd never pay more than £10m for a defender or goalkeeper, ever. Limited role, limited skill set, they get paid accordingly and so we should be paying for them accordingly.

 

And you can fuck off with any talk of Subotic or Hummels or established elite CB's. Big Hutu warlord CB's, that's what we need. £2m each.

 

Not Rodgers type, we're more likely to see Ashley Williams who I believe checks in at a even 6' and doesen't fancy the teams best player.

[piscinin]

Dont go ringing the Clarke bell just because they beat us. He contributed fuck all to that win, fuck all. They should have been obliterated. At one point towards the end of the first half there was a close up of Clarke on the sideline and I actually felt sorry for him, his team weren't in the game at all, just totally outclassed.

 

Olsson is a fouling cunt who just 'gets away with it', just. He gives away a penalty or two a game but the ref doesnt tend to see it. Utter shithouse.

 

West Brom have also conceded more goals in the league than us this season so you can take your nonsense elsewhere, where facts are overlooked and kneejerk rhetoric rules supreme.

 

Steve Clarke is a very, very average manager, and he was defensive coach at a time when we endured some fucking shocking results last season.

 

I agree Clarke is probably just a very, very average manager. One who manages to make fouling cunts and utter shithouses out-perform superior players, nevertheless.

[aiyic]

Dont go ringing the Clarke bell just because they beat us. He contributed fuck all to that win, fuck all. They should have been obliterated. At one point towards the end of the first half there was a close up of Clarke on the sideline and I actually felt sorry for him, his team weren't in the game at all, just totally outclassed.

 

Steve Clarke is a very, very average manager, and he was defensive coach at a time when we endured some fucking shocking results last season.

 

In fairness his point is just about the defenders coaching, rather than giving credit to Clarke to the actual final score. WBA's defending last night was (alehouse as they might be) well-coached. The belief in us scoring was completely sapped from the forward line, which in turn led to the this-is-not-our-night bullshit.

 

There was plenty of talk of wanting Skrtel gone under Rafa's last season/Hodgson. Then he suddenly discovered how to clear a ball with his massive head under Dalglish/Clarke, and also wpoke of how his game had improved under Clarke.

 

My point isn't to bring back Clarke, but to point to a seeming lack of defensive coaching in the team as a whole.

 

Skrtel has actually been quite good in my eyes, and nothing like as bad as he's made out to be. While Agger should be considering tattoo-removal for the first time.

 

Down to the caoching for me.

 

PS can anyone see Coates improving under the current set-up?

[Randy Marsh]

Agger culpable for both last night, plays Milner onside then caught in no mans land when the ball is played over for Dzeko at City, and fails to make any kind of forceful attempt to challenge Giroud's header at the Emirates. It's him who is concerning me most at the moment.

[xerxes]

There is nothing wrong with the ability of dagger or skirts, but the leadership of our defence is woeful at the moment. Pepe no longder marshalls our defending fom behind, Johnson and Enrique bomb out of position with no-one calling them back, the original two are just going with the flow.

[Gym Beglin]

Last night's game was on the flip of a coin, I mean, Ben Foster performing heroics was one thing but when Steven Reid spooned that over his own bar, that's when I lost all hope. How often does that happen? How improbable is it that he could make that contact on a whipped ball and for it not to go in the net?

 

Had we scored when it looked like we would score, then we could and very probably would have chalked up 4 against them and throughly deserved it. I have no problem with the performance of the team as a whole, I thought it was fucking excellent. But we strayed into that territory where each save by Foster took a bit out of us. But the problem was shooting.

How many screamers do you see from United bursting the net, or top corner? Nah, loads of them just passed or arrowed into the bottom corner.

[Gym Beglin]

There was plenty of talk of wanting Skrtel gone under Rafa's last season/Hodgson. Then he suddenly discovered how to clear a ball with his massive head under Dalglish/Clarke, and also wpoke of how his game had improved under Clarke.

 

I'm sorry but defenders at this level should not be needing supplemental coaching to learn them how to perform the basics of defending, line in the fucking sand time. Tactics, yes we can coach, fitness yes we can help with. But basics of tackling and heading, even positioning, that's what makes a good defender in the first place, that's why we buy them, because they are naturally good at defending. Are we running a soccer academy or a football club? And what, he becomes a better defender under Clarke and then FORGETS IT ALL? Huh? What, is Rodgers asking them to stop performing the basics of defending?

 

Do you know what happens when people don't do their jobs under Ferguson? They get sold to Sunderland.

[Dracco]

Daniel Agger ‏@DanielAgger

I agree with most of you. My performance the last 10 minutes of yesterday's game was NOT good enough. It's as simple as that!!!!!

But thank you for letting me know:0)))))))

 

...he probably ment in last 10 weeks not good enough, and that is said politely...

[Whelan]

So you are saying benitez and/or Catenaccio wouldn't get a better defesnive performance out of these players. OK! You should retire from football if you believe that.

 

Let me juxtapose the system and bad defending for you. That goal you refer to was conceded due to a failure of an individual and a failure of the system. Agger lost his man, error. In a properly drilled system though the zonal defender (Borini?) would not have run out of the zone from which 70% of goals are scored. He would have stayed there and been able to block the run. Just like Olsson did to Agger to get Macauley free in the first place.

 

But our system or more properly our player's ability to play this system, doesn't compensate for individual errors, it exacerbates them.

 

By all means support the manager in whatever way you see fit, but you will not be able to pull the wool over the eyes of everyone. So don't try, or if you do, up your game. Read a book maybe?

 

So Rafa never conceded from set peices then? That last minute goal at Old Trafford by Ferdinand didn't occur, the goals scored by Cahill from corners never happend, Tevez (fuckign Giant of a man!) didn't score from a corner for City? Of course they did, and many more - and I didn't see you blaming the system then either.

 

I have absolutely no intention of pulling the wool over the eyes of everyone, my intention is pointing out that the absolute certaintly with which you presume you superior understanding of statistics (which is justified) can identify and address any problem on the football field - is utter nonesense. All your example above proves is that you don't feel the error is the sole responsibility of Agger but Borini also, had he not left his area then he would have blocked the run you suggest, so Borini was also at fault. No system compensates for weakness, none! They all rely upon human beings ability to carry out instructions, as best they can.

 

By all means - point me to the system that Rafa used that accounted for human errors in its configuration! I would hazzard a guess that no system is designed with that in mind.

 

But - the corner for the first goal came from a short from Muamba from outside the area which we had left when pushing for the win, which, had Gerrard scored would not have existed - as we would not have been so exposed. Again, nothing to do with the system - we were exposed because we got caught - we got caught because we need a goal - we needed a goal because we didn't put our chances away - our inability to put chances away is not down to Rodgers system, just as it wasn't down to Kenny's last season or those under Rafa - it is players who do not the character and mental strength to take the one chance that arises and put it away.

 

But you carry on cherry picking statistics and trying to convince everyone that your preconceptions are still valid and relevant.

 

Now I think i'll go and read a book, something from the Humanities that deals with the human condition, all our weakeness and failings - you'll probably hate it.

[Major Tom]

So Rafa never conceded from set peices then? That last minute goal at Old Trafford by Ferdinand didn't occur, the goals scored by Cahill from corners never happend, Tevez (fuckign Giant of a man!) didn't score from a corner for City? Of course they did, and many more - and I didn't see you blaming the system then either.

 

I have absolutely no intention of pulling the wool over the eyes of everyone, my intention is pointing out that the absolute certaintly with which you presume you superior understanding of statistics (which is justified) can identify and address any problem on the football field - is utter nonesense. All your example above proves is that you don't feel the error is the sole responsibility of Agger but Borini also, had he not left his area then he would have blocked the run you suggest, so Borini was also at fault. No system compensates for weakness, none! They all rely upon human beings ability to carry out instructions, as best they can.

 

By all means - point me to the system that Rafa used that accounted for human errors in its configuration! I would hazzard a guess that no system is designed with that in mind.

 

But - the corner for the first goal came from a short from Muamba from outside the area which we had left when pushing for the win, which, had Gerrard scored would not have existed - as we would not have been so exposed. Again, nothing to do with the system - we were exposed because we got caught - we got caught because we need a goal - we needed a goal because we didn't put our chances away - our inability to put chances away is not down to Rodgers system, just as it wasn't down to Kenny's last season or those under Rafa - it is players who do not the character and mental strength to take the one chance that arises and put it away.

 

But you carry on cherry picking statistics and trying to convince everyone that your preconceptions are still valid and relevant.

 

Now I think i'll go and read a book, something from the Humanities that deals with the human condition, all our weakeness and failings - you'll probably hate it.

 

Bravo.

[Tony Moanero]

Martin Skrtel is a decent defender. However, although his shaven head makes him look dead hard, he is a bit of a pussy.

[Anubis]

It's blindingly obvious that the whole team does not move up and down the pitch as a unit, and as such our defence has worsened considerably. There is nothing wrong with our defence that some appropriate coaching, and some tweeking of 'the system' could address. Now if only we had somebody experienced in marshalling a defence to become more than the sum of it's parts, somebody with the coaching badges who was looking for a role after retirement, and who knew the players he'd be working with well, and who'd have their respect.....

[Walton Park]

Losing your man consistently from crosses or set pieces has fuck all to do with defensive systems and is simply down to sloppy marking.

 

I would agree with the team struggling to move up and down the pitch as one unit. We dont seem to have the strength and pace in the centre. Gerrard cant do it on his own.

[Nightcat]

Dont go ringing the Clarke bell just because they beat us. He contributed fuck all to that win, fuck all. They should have been obliterated. At one point towards the end of the first half there was a close up of Clarke on the sideline and I actually felt sorry for him, his team weren't in the game at all, just totally outclassed.

 

Olsson is a fouling cunt who just 'gets away with it', just. He gives away a penalty or two a game but the ref doesnt tend to see it. Utter shithouse.

 

West Brom have also conceded more goals in the league than us this season so you can take your nonsense elsewhere, where facts are overlooked and kneejerk rhetoric rules supreme.

 

Steve Clarke is a very, very average manager, and he was defensive coach at a time when we endured some fucking shocking results last season.

 

Under Kenny and Clarke, we had the third best defence in the league and the defence that took us to two finals in the rest of the competitions we participated last season. Now we concede goals from anyone in every possible way or form, Oldham, mighty Swansea, West Ham, 3! against Aston Villa, the second worst attack in the League, Mansfield etc...

 

and yet you insist to call all this shite "individual mistakes". Whatever.

 

Lucas was class last night as well, so no excuses for the defence.

 

you're having a laugh. I like Lucas, but at the moment he isn't playing well.

[Trucker Paddy]

 

Under Kenny and Clarke' date=' we had the third best defence in the league and the defence that took us to two finals in the rest of the competitions we participated last season. Now we concede goals from anyone in every possible way or form, Oldham, mighty Swansea, West Ham, 3! against Aston Villa, the second worst attack in the League, Mansfield etc...

 

and yet you insist to call all this shite "individual mistakes". Whatever.

 

you're having a laugh. I like Lucas, but at the moment he isn't playing well.[/quote']

 

Your talking to the bloke who 10 days ago said joe Allen would get in the current Barcelona team.

[Jairzinho]

Your talking to the bloke who 10 days ago said joe Allen would get in the current Barcelona team.

 

[BCM]

So... So far this Season, we have had Agger, Skrtel, Johnson,Enrique and Reina getting called out by our fans. Every single player in our defence labelled shite and fit to burn.

 

Some people cant see the wood for the fucking trees.......

[kalasoma]

We should get rid of everyone.

[Captain]

The Anti Rodgers Taliban.

 

The TARTs will be up and running soon.

[A.V.B.]

They're constantly exposed by the system we play. We have no solid central midfield like we used to and the side is much more spread out than it used to be. Franz Beckenbauer would look poor in this side.

 

Given that Beckenbauer was known for his pace and stamina and forward thinking attributes I doubt that very much. In fact he'd be perfect for this system.

[A.V.B.]

Given that Beckenbauer was known for his pace and stamina and forward thinking attributes I doubt that very much. In fact he'd be perfect for this system.

 

Okay not sure where half my post went but

 

Given that Beckenbauer was known for his pace inspite of his size and tecnhical ability and poise on the ball leading to calm and well made decisions not to mention his stamina and forward thinking attributes I doubt that very much. In fact he'd be perfect for our system.