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Daniel Agger and Martin Skrtel


Antynwa
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When a team is set up properly and you've got the right personnel in midfield and full back' date=' your centre backs are literally just the last line of defence. All the little interceptions by the likes of Xabi, Masch, Finnan, Hamann meant our centre backs were never as exposed as they are now. Same goes for the goalie too.

 

Changing personnel isn't going to make a difference. You can't polish a turd.[/quote']

 

We are again singing from the same hymn sheet. Agger and Skrtel havent suddenly become bad defenders and lets not let Carra off scot free. Weve still been conceeding goals while hes been there. They arent all everybody else's fault.

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Okay not sure where half my post went but

 

Given that Beckenbauer was known for his pace inspite of his size and tecnhical ability and poise on the ball leading to calm and well made decisions not to mention his stamina and forward thinking attributes I doubt that very much. In fact he'd be perfect for our system.

 

So what you're saying is, all we need to add to the current system to stop us being a joke at the back is the best defender who's ever played the game?

 

Hyypia, Henchoz and Carragher weren't especially mobile, agile or ferocious players but they played in systems where they were well drilled, knew where each other were, could play offside, had good communication with each other and with their goalie, and were well protected by full backs and a strong midfield.

 

There's more to this shit here than just adding the best players for every position, hell, the famours Arsenal back four were proof of that.

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So what you're saying is, all we need to add to the current system to stop us being a joke at the back is the best defender who's ever played the game?

 

Hyypia, Henchoz and Carragher weren't especially mobile, agile or ferocious players but they played in systems where they were well drilled, knew where each other were, could play offside, had good communication with each other and with their goalie, and were well protected by full backs and a strong midfield.

 

There's more to this shit here than just adding the best players for every position, hell, the famours Arsenal back four were proof of that.

 

Hyypia never needed to be mobile and he was tidy on the ball. He stopped attacks before they started and what we wouldn't give for his aerial dominance, poise and leadership at the back now?!

 

Carragher is past it and he knows it and yet he's come back into the team and showed that he's still more reliable and can still comand a back 4.

 

Who exactly is supposed to be the leader of our back 4 or 5 if you include the keeper? Every team that does anything has one.

 

Look at the goals we're conceding, for the most part they are either individual errors or because we're pushing forward looking for a goal we should have scored in the first half along with another two or three.

 

That famous Arsenal back four didn't have to move, they always had the knowledge that their strikers would take their half chances and they'd be able to play in unison not needing to go up and try and win the game late on. They also were good on the ball (had to be in that team) and had one of the best leaders of all time in Tony Adams.

 

There was more stability in Swansea's back line and when Chico made that mistake the first thing Rodgers did was back him and he then had the strength of character to improve and not make that same stupid mistake again right after, something our players need to learn.

 

This isn't about buying the best. Let City have Skrtel and Agger if they still want them and watch them suffer as a result. City are so in tune with what's going on that they bench their best player in Tevez and they break up a partnership that won them the title at the back in Kompany and Lescott to bring in a young talented player who clearly wasn't ready for this league despite his talent.

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Hyypia never needed to be mobile and he was tidy on the ball. He stopped attacks before they started and what we wouldn't give for his aerial dominance, poise and leadership at the back now?!

 

Carragher is past it and he knows it and yet he's come back into the team and showed that he's still more reliable and can still comand a back 4.

 

Who exactly is supposed to be the leader of our back 4 or 5 if you include the keeper? Every team that does anything has one.

 

Look at the goals we're conceding, for the most part they are either individual errors or because we're pushing forward looking for a goal we should have scored in the first half along with another two or three.

 

That famous Arsenal back four didn't have to move, they always had the knowledge that their strikers would take their half chances and they'd be able to play in unison not needing to go up and try and win the game late on. They also were good on the ball (had to be in that team) and had one of the best leaders of all time in Tony Adams.

 

There was more stability in Swansea's back line and when Chico made that mistake the first thing Rodgers did was back him and he then had the strength of character to improve and not make that same stupid mistake again right after, something our players need to learn.

 

This isn't about buying the best. Let City have Skrtel and Agger if they still want them and watch them suffer as a result. City are so in tune with what's going on that they bench their best player in Tevez and they break up a partnership that won them the title at the back in Kompany and Lescott to bring in a young talented player who clearly wasn't ready for this league despite his talent.

 

^ Boring sod.

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Guest San Don
We should get rid of everyone.

 

Maybe we just need to consider the defensive coach's position? If we have one that is because whoever it is has certainly overseen a deterioration in that part of the team.

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Hyypia never needed to be mobile and he was tidy on the ball. He stopped attacks before they started and what we wouldn't give for his aerial dominance, poise and leadership at the back now?!

 

Carragher is past it and he knows it and yet he's come back into the team and showed that he's still more reliable and can still comand a back 4.

 

Who exactly is supposed to be the leader of our back 4 or 5 if you include the keeper? Every team that does anything has one.

 

Look at the goals we're conceding, for the most part they are either individual errors or because we're pushing forward looking for a goal we should have scored in the first half along with another two or three.

 

That famous Arsenal back four didn't have to move, they always had the knowledge that their strikers would take their half chances and they'd be able to play in unison not needing to go up and try and win the game late on. They also were good on the ball (had to be in that team) and had one of the best leaders of all time in Tony Adams.

 

There was more stability in Swansea's back line and when Chico made that mistake the first thing Rodgers did was back him and he then had the strength of character to improve and not make that same stupid mistake again right after, something our players need to learn.

 

This isn't about buying the best. Let City have Skrtel and Agger if they still want them and watch them suffer as a result. City are so in tune with what's going on that they bench their best player in Tevez and they break up a partnership that won them the title at the back in Kompany and Lescott to bring in a young talented player who clearly wasn't ready for this league despite his talent.

 

Kidding aren't you? Boring boring Arsenal ring any bells?

 

Also, do you think defenders make decisions themselves on how far up the pitch to play, or how far away from their midfield or full backs? That's the system.

 

It's alright saying Hyypia had great positional sense, but it wouldn't matter if his fellow defenders and midfielders were miles away from him, you'd be asking him to cover massive amounts of ground, track back, race after players who'd beaten him, and the fans would be calling him all sorts, slow this and cart horse that.

 

Under our best Houllier and Rafa sides we had players in midfield who'd cut out half the danger before it got anywhere near the defence. Dozens of attacks a game would be snuffed out subtly long before it became an issue.

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Kidding aren't you? Boring boring Arsenal ring any bells?

 

Yeah and so does 1-0 to the Arsenal. They played defensive all through the game and then they took one chance and held it. Do you really want that to be us?

 

Also, do you think defenders make decisions themselves on how far up the pitch to play, or how far away from their midfield or full backs? That's the system.

 

How far up the field they play isn't the issue here. Lukaku doesn't get that chance and we don't play that far up the field if we score earlier and it's a different game. We weren't defending high up the field 2-0 up against Arsenal and in fact the fact we didn't push up and sat back was our undoing.

 

It's alright saying Hyypia had great positional sense, but it wouldn't matter if his fellow defenders and midfielders were miles away from him, you'd be asking him to cover massive amounts of ground, track back, race after players who'd beaten him, and the fans would be calling him all sorts, slow this and cart horse that.

 

I'm not sure where this idea that Liverpool's back four just sat in a line and that was it, under Benitez we routinely had our centre backs push wide to draw teams on to us and then we kept the ball and looked for mistakes to exploit.

 

Under our best Houllier and Rafa sides we had players in midfield who'd cut out half the danger before it got anywhere near the defence. Dozens of attacks a game would be snuffed out subtly long before it became an issue.

 

It's hardly Brendan's fault that his best defensive player (not just in midfield but full stop) Lucas has been out injured. Houllier had Hamann and a rampant Gerrard not to mention he played long ball Heskey to knock down Owen goal; and Rafa, dear god Rafa had "the greatest midfield in the world"

 

I don't see this idea that attacks arn't being snuffed out either. Who was the last team to outplay us or over run us completely because we pushed up the field? I've seen teams take their half chances while we've failed to take ours but I'm still yet to see a side comprehensively outplay us

 

I'm reminded of what Guardiola said when he was asked whether he would bollock Alves for missing a tackle and costing Barca a game, when asked by the reporter: "Will you have a word with him about his defending and tell him not to attack as much?" Guardiola replied "No I'll just tell him to attack better."

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Stewart Downing was marking Ollson on corners last night. That is a flawed defensive system and before people say we are a small team it should be remembered we where a small team when the manager went out and got Allen, Sahin and Borini and then introduced Sterling and Suso to the mix. If his summer spending was an over sight there is simply no excuses for buying another midget when any clown can see we're crying out for some physical presence all over the field.

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So Rafa never conceded from set peices then? That last minute goal at Old Trafford by Ferdinand didn't occur, the goals scored by Cahill from corners never happend, Tevez (fuckign Giant of a man!) didn't score from a corner for City? Of course they did, and many more - and I didn't see you blaming the system then either.

 

I have absolutely no intention of pulling the wool over the eyes of everyone, my intention is pointing out that the absolute certaintly with which you presume you superior understanding of statistics (which is justified) can identify and address any problem on the football field - is utter nonesense. All your example above proves is that you don't feel the error is the sole responsibility of Agger but Borini also, had he not left his area then he would have blocked the run you suggest, so Borini was also at fault. No system compensates for weakness, none! They all rely upon human beings ability to carry out instructions, as best they can.

 

By all means - point me to the system that Rafa used that accounted for human errors in its configuration! I would hazzard a guess that no system is designed with that in mind.

 

But - the corner for the first goal came from a short from Muamba from outside the area which we had left when pushing for the win, which, had Gerrard scored would not have existed - as we would not have been so exposed. Again, nothing to do with the system - we were exposed because we got caught - we got caught because we need a goal - we needed a goal because we didn't put our chances away - our inability to put chances away is not down to Rodgers system, just as it wasn't down to Kenny's last season or those under Rafa - it is players who do not the character and mental strength to take the one chance that arises and put it away.

 

But you carry on cherry picking statistics and trying to convince everyone that your preconceptions are still valid and relevant.

 

Now I think i'll go and read a book, something from the Humanities that deals with the human condition, all our weakeness and failings - you'll probably hate it.

 

If you are going to take a break, watch a video instead. This one (Coaching the Italian 4-4-2 w/Arrigo Sacchi Soccer DVD) will explain in very precise detail the kind of things benitez did to cope with individual errors. Look at out for clues like "Pressure, Cover, Balance", "Defending as a collective", etc.

 

The Human Condition, hate, blah, blah. I don't understand. I'm assuming it's a lame dig based on the pre-conception that learning to apply t-tests and the like requires a faustian pact, sacrifice of your humanity etc. Well, it ain't like that no more dude.

 

On the off-chance that you really do want to read something insightful on the human condition, I'd recommend No Exit and three other plays by Jean Paul Sartre, not my favourite on the subject, but the one perhaps that you will be best able to relate to. The parallels between it and you and I in this thread are too good to be true.

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Wish we had sold them to City in the summer. Since they've been here they've been a combination of world class, mediocre and crap. They have a 10/10 game once every 10 games and the rest of the time their performances are littered with absolute shockers.

 

We need to get back to basis with our defense. Like Ged did, bring in two sold defenders, and a new goal keeper.

 

We need to build a new defence going forward. We won't have Carragher anymore and there is no one around who can replace him or contribute the same type of leadership he has.

 

Fuming

 

The end of season should see a firesale clearout, Suarez will piss off and should be followed by Agger, Skrtel, Reiner, Downing, Allen, Shelvey, Carroll who is just about gone anyway, Borini, and while he is still worth a few bob Sterling, all except suarez are part of our inconsistency, this should gross maybe about 150 million and scouting for replacements should start now, this may sound drastic but how about, out of the fa cup, out of the carling cup, fourth place gone, 27 points behind utd 5 points behind Everton, thats what you can call drastic, should be searching for minted sponsors that go with a club with a mighty history, not staying with some cash strapped yanks,Rogers does his best but is he just another Martin O'neil.

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Under Kenny and Clarke, we had the third best defence in the league and the defence that took us to two finals in the rest of the competitions we participated last season. Now we concede goals from anyone in every possible way or form, Oldham, mighty Swansea, West Ham, 3! against Aston Villa, the second worst attack in the League, Mansfield etc...

 

and yet you insist to call all this shite "individual mistakes". Whatever.

.

 

Same defenders. It's the same defenders. The same ones who fell apart in the second half of the season. The defensive decline STARTED under Clarke and Kenny, it didn't start under Rodgers.

 

You want to use cups? We conceded in every single round of the FA Cup. So fuck off.

We conceded two goals in the League Cup Final to Cardiff, and two in the second leg of the semi final. Tight.

 

We lost 11 of 18 league games from 1 January onwards, conceding 25 goals in the process. Solid as a rock.

 

We have a better defensive record THIS season, than Clarke has at West Brom. Are you Steve Clarke's son? Fuck off.

 

 

 

Your talking to the bloke who 10 days ago said joe Allen would get in the current Barcelona team.

 

I bet you wouldn't have given Borja Valero a chance of playing for Spain's national team when he was struggling in the West Brom midfield as well then. He was named Spanish Footballer of the Year in 2010 by Don Balon, an award won by Iniesta the previous season. 18 months prior to that, he was in a relegated West Brom side.

But he was probably shit, right?

 

Joe Allen is one of the brightest midfield talents in Europe, end of story. His confidence is low, this is what happens. I'll be glad to remind you of your disdain for Allen in the years to come.

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So lot´s of you blame the system, or lack of cover?

 

You should open your eyes mates. Skrtel is inconsistent and Agger is overrated as fuck, good footballer but poor defender. Never understand this "he reads the game well and has great positioning" shit. I´ve said for years that he always hides, is slow and often nowhere near the player he should be. And it often leads to his partner looking as an fool (if it´s Carra or Skrtel ) because they have to cover his ass.

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If you are going to take a break' date=' watch a video instead. This one (Coaching the Italian 4-4-2 w/Arrigo Sacchi Soccer DVD) will explain in very precise detail the kind of things benitez did to cope with individual errors. Look at out for clues like "Pressure, Cover, Balance", "Defending as a collective", etc.

 

The Human Condition, hate, blah, blah. I don't understand. I'm assuming it's a lame dig based on the pre-conception that learning to apply t-tests and the like requires a faustian pact, sacrifice of your humanity etc. Well, it ain't like that no more dude.

 

On the off-chance that you really do want to read something insightful on the human condition, I'd recommend No Exit and three other plays by Jean Paul Sartre, not my favourite on the subject, but the one perhaps that you will be best able to relate to. The parallels between it and you and I in this thread are too good to be true.

 

One of my favourite coaching videos BUT its only a very basic way of doing things and intended only to give an understanding of the system.

Every coach will take snippets of the information and use it to suit their own playing philosophy and way of doing things.

Corners and set pieces, both attacking and defending are very individual and change with each coach but its pretty obvious Rodgers weakness is defending set pieces and he would benefit from some help. I'm not sure he is keen on help though based on our dealings with them all season.

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I'm not sure that it's applicable to say that Rodgers weakness is defending set pieces, because he's not playing, and I've always felt that set pieces are something you cannot control totally.

 

The delivery for one. I'd love to see a person stand 10 yards away at corners. Yes I know it's potentially a waste of time, but I also think that every little helps in trying to stop a perfect delivery of a corner. Put them off, jump up, block their view a bit.

 

Goalkeeping positioning is up to Reina. He could and should have come and cleared that ball at the corner. I'd have expected that from a top keeper, it was a step and a jump away from him, but this was mostly down to Pepe being rooted to his line, on his fucking heels.

 

But in terms of marking people and all that, forget it. There's not a perfect system. Just stick the players in the box who are good at heading and tell them to win the fucking ball. Pot luck, nobody knows where it's going, so spread out and just get your head on it. Total waste of time tactics on corners. Barca dont even take corners, just take it short and build an attack from there. Percentages-wise, it's a wasteland to concentrate on corners. If we had two boss centre backs and a keeper then we wouldn't be bothered, they'd deal with it. Yes, you concede every now and then, so be it. Accept it and move on, score some goals.

 

Skrtel is a conman, and last season was his nadir. He's never bossed a defence on his own, he's always needed to be a sidekick to someone better and louder. £20m for that? We were fucking mugs not to sell. He's John O Shea level, if that.

 

Agger has been calamitous, but I'd retain him as long as he stays fit. I dont think he's developing well from playing with Skrtel most weeks, or in front of Pepe.

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I'm not sure that it's applicable to say that Rodgers weakness is defending set pieces, because he's not playing, and I've always felt that set pieces are something you cannot control totally.

 

 

I tell you what he can control, Having set players in a wall at free kicks.Having set players marking key players in the opposition who are good in the air.

 

His control is putting his best header of the ball, Skrtel in the wall at a free kick against United :wallbutt:.

Whilst Johnson and Sterling pick up Evra and Vidic at the back post. :wallbutt:

 

Fucking ridiculous.

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The end of season should see a firesale clearout, Suarez will piss off and should be followed by Agger, Skrtel, Reiner, Downing, Allen, Shelvey, Carroll who is just about gone anyway, Borini, and while he is still worth a few bob Sterling, all except suarez are part of our inconsistency, this should gross maybe about 150 million and scouting for replacements should start now, this may sound drastic but how about, out of the fa cup, out of the carling cup, fourth place gone, 27 points behind utd 5 points behind Everton, thats what you can call drastic, should be searching for minted sponsors that go with a club with a mighty history, not staying with some cash strapped yanks,Rogers does his best but is he just another Martin O'neil.

 

wrong forum kid, look up some fifa forums to discuss that particular kind of bollicks.

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The end of season should see a firesale clearout, Suarez will piss off and should be followed by Agger, Skrtel, Reiner, Downing, Allen, Shelvey, Carroll who is just about gone anyway, Borini, and while he is still worth a few bob Sterling, all except suarez are part of our inconsistency, this should gross maybe about 150 million and scouting for replacements should start now, this may sound drastic but how about, out of the fa cup, out of the carling cup, fourth place gone, 27 points behind utd 5 points behind Everton, thats what you can call drastic, should be searching for minted sponsors that go with a club with a mighty history, not staying with some cash strapped yanks,Rogers does his best but is he just another Martin O'neil.

 

jesus wept

 

and it's reina you plumb

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Had a quick scan through goals conceded and if we concede at the present rate we will concede more than we did in the 98/99 season which was our most amount of goals conceded in a 38 game season.

 

I doubt our defence that year had the quality of players we have in it now.

 

It was fucking shite that season. We bought Rigobert Song in January '99.

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I don't think we should be blaming the players themselves. Coaches come and go, and systems change. All the players have to get their heads around change. That's never easy, which is why it's common for players to move on after new management takes over.

 

As I've mentioned on several threads this season, a player's mentality either contributes or detracts from his form. Skrrtel and Agger have gone from being contended and playing consistantly well under Clarke and Dalglish, to being very unsettled. Pepe is also unsettled. (just as an aside, I also argue that Carroll, who didn't want to go to West Ham , would be in a negative head state after the whole fiasco, and in a profession where you create your own luck, I tend to think injuries can play their part with a poor mentality, because of lack of focus.)

 

We are playing a heavy price for a complete lack of continuity.

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I don't think we should be blaming the players themselves. Coaches come and go, and systems change. All the players have to get their heads around change. That's never easy, which is why it's common for players to move on after new management takes over.

 

As I've mentioned on several threads this season, a player's mentality either contributes or detracts from his form. Skrrtel and Agger have gone from being contended and playing consistantly well under Clarke and Dalglish, to being very unsettled. Pepe is also unsettled. (just as an aside, I also argue that Carroll, who didn't want to go to West Ham , would be in a negative head state after the whole fiasco, and in a profession where you create your own luck, I tend to think injuries can play their part with a poor mentality, because of lack of focus.)

 

We are playing a heavy price for a complete lack of continuity.

 

I don't have facts to back this up but I'd would imagine our injury record this year is as good as it been in 25 years.

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