Depression

[Oh Buoy]

Completely useless, glib advice. You'd make a great therapist.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiC-8suDDaI

Brilliant stuff.

 

I'd appreciate if you didn't mock my profession or industry. It's full of people who have their heart in the right place and assist millions with their mental health. They are brilliant people who often put others health before their own.

 

You may wish to take some time to reflect on your approach to getting help and why you've become so poisonous to something that's grounded in psychological science and medicine.

[Captain Turdseye]

As recently as January, Hades was telling me that science will classify depression as a neurological disease in the near future.

 

It’s some fucking epiphany he’s had. I want one.

[Hades]

Brilliant stuff.

 

I'd appreciate if you didn't mock my profession or industry. It's full of people who have their heart in the right place and assist millions with their mental health. They are brilliant people who often put others health before their own.

 

You may wish to take some time to reflect on your approach to getting help and why you've become so poisonous to something that's grounded in psychological science and medicine.

 

Intentions don't matter compared to intellectual honesty - a concept with which I've never found any therapist comfortable.

 

As recently as January, Hades was telling me that science will classify depression as a neurological disease in the near future.

 

It’s some fucking epiphany he’s had. I want one.

 

It is neurological and causes tremendous suffering. However, after more reading I've become cynical about a cure that doesn't involve some level of transhumanism.

 

10% of Australians have taken antidepressants and the figures are rising. The rapidly declining birthrates in advanced economies show that people are waking up the fact that life is shit. It was only ignorance, suppression of women, constant wars, lack of distraction and religious authority that kept people procreating. Depression and pessimism are a rational response to the fact that the universe is a horror show of everyone eating each other to survive. Some will win heavily and some will lose heavily, no matter the level of social intervention. Therapy seen in that context could be compared to brainwashing.

[mgw100]

Chin up mate. Might never 'appen

[Oh Buoy]

Intentions don't matter compared to intellectual honesty - a concept with which I've never found any therapist comfortable.

 

 

It is neurological and causes tremendous suffering. However, after more reading I've become cynical about a cure that doesn't involve some level of transhumanism.

 

10% of Australians have taken antidepressants and the figures are rising. The rapidly declining birthrates in advanced economies show that people are waking up the fact that life is shit. It was only ignorance, suppression of women, constant wars, lack of distraction and religious authority that kept people procreating. Depression and pessimism are a rational response to the fact that the universe is a horror show of everyone eating each other to survive. Some will win heavily and some will lose heavily, no matter the level of social intervention. Therapy seen in that context could be compared to brainwashing.

What are you looking for when you state intellectual honesty?

 

I don't think you'll find depression passing as a disorder. Whilst I can understand where your coming from in the neurological sense (e.g. synaptic transmissions) it's not a deficit.

 

In addition, you're making some large assumptions here yet picking to use scientific grounding where and when it suits your argument.

 

The comparison of therapy to brainwashing is also laughable. It supports goals that the client generates. It doesn't guide them to an ideal or any particular vision.

 

Happy to discuss this further when you're ready.

[Rico1304]

What are you looking for when you state intellectual honesty?

 

I don't think you'll find depression passing as a disorder. Whilst I can understand where your coming from in the neurological sense (e.g. synaptic transmissions) it's not a deficit.

 

In addition, you're making some large assumptions here yet picking to use scientific grounding where and when it suits your argument.

 

The comparison of therapy to brainwashing is also laughable. It supports goals that the client generates. It doesn't guide them to an ideal or any particular vision.

 

Happy to discuss this further when you're ready.

That’s you on his list.

[Oh Buoy]

That’s you on his list.

Happy to join the club.

[Hades]

I'm not attacking the majority of the people in the profession, I'm attacking the premises of the profession. People can do the wrong things for the right reasons. Most therapists are good actors, although there are some that enjoy having power over people.

 

In my opinion, if therapists were truly interested in helping, they'd campaign for things like voluntary euthanasia and rather than stringing lost causes along at great expense.

[Oh Buoy]

I'm not attacking the majority of the people in the profession, I'm attacking the premises of the profession.

 

You're actually doing both there, pal. I'm struggling to see how posting a YouTube video about how to be an Amercian Psychiatrist in 9 minutes whereby the entire video promotes how a qualified role is based on laziness, zero knowledge and zero care towards the patient is not attacking a profession. In fact, it makes a mockery of regulation bodies such as GMC: https://www.gmc-uk.org/concerns/information-for-doctors-under-investigation/how-we-investigate-concerns/our-investigation-process

 

People can do the wrong things for the right reasons. Most therapists are good actors, although there are some that enjoy having power over people.

 

In my opinion, if therapists were truly interested in helping, they'd campaign for things like voluntary euthanasia and rather than stringing lost causes along at great expense.

Like any profession, there may be some bad apples and to think healthcare is immune would be naive and unrealistic. However, the majority of people aren't and therefore tarring the majority of professionals in this field as 'good actors' and that they 'enjoy having power over people' is unfair and inaccurate. Therapeutic interventions are completely voluntary and therefore there is no control attached to this. These interventions are also tested in various populations and therefore indicate that the recovery rate is often more successful than not. That's not to say they'll work for everyone, but for the majority, they'll often help with building appropriate coping strategies.

 

I'm not going to entertain the comment about therapists campaigning for voluntary euthanasia because it's an emotive topic and one that has the potential to dilute the current discussion.

[Remmie]

Interesting article on the effects of cold water swimming on depression: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45487187

[cloggypop]

1 hour ago, Remmie said:

Interesting article on the effects of cold water swimming on depression: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45487187

All you miserable cunts

 

Get in the sea

[Elite]

Has anybody ever taken anti-depressants for pain? 

I've been struggling with back problems for months, have had physio, sldone numerous stretching programmes and the only thing that helps is strong painkillers which I don't want to be taking all the time. My doctor mentioned that anti-depressants can help relieve pain but I refused as I don't want to be on them but am now at the point where I will take them if it helps.

[Oh Buoy]

11 hours ago, Remmie said:

Interesting article on the effects of cold water swimming on depression: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45487187

I can't get access to the full report. 

It could be just behavioural activation (e.g. increased exercise) as I can't see anything that points to the cold shock being the variable that's measured/changed. Even the summary looks like it's a programme of swimming without reference to the shock effect. 

[lifetime fan]

Stopped taking the sertraline, it was making things worse rather than better. 

[Champ]

9 minutes ago, lifetime fan said:

Stopped taking the sertraline, it was making things worse rather than better. 

Have you been prescribed an alternative?

[rubble-rouser]

1 hour ago, Elite said:

Has anybody ever taken anti-depressants for pain? 

I've been struggling with back problems for months, have had physio, sldone numerous stretching programmes and the only thing that helps is strong painkillers which I don't want to be taking all the time. My doctor mentioned that anti-depressants can help relieve pain but I refused as I don't want to be on them but am now at the point where I will take them if it helps.

 

Was it amitrypiline? That is used as a mild antidepressant and for pain relief. 

I have no idea whether it is addictive?

[Skidfingers McGonical]

I’ve been on a real deep meditation mission these last few weeks. Started looking into inner self guided meditation as well as using the headspace app. I doubled my dosage of fluoxetine as I could really feel it all coming back very heavy about 3 months ago. 

 

Spent a weekend up in Loch Lomond for my 40th he other week and doing some meditation up there is mind blowing. Just sitting on a shingle beach listening to the sounds of nature around you. 

 

Its really helpng me stay calm calm and relaxed in work and while we are uprooted to the mother in laws as we are getting the house refurbed, young lad has started school and a new one due in 12 weeks. This time last year my breakdown had started. Had a s flash back before I was going to a wedding on a Saturday. Nerves about being a large group kicked in. Anxiety started to manifest. Ended up a bit bevvied and waking up realising I’d blacked out the last 2 hours of my night. This has happened the last four times I’ve been out and had never happened before. Really messes with my head as panic of “What Did I do?” Kick in. Fortunately I was just pissed and loud. Nothing offensive, but it really does shake me up. Doesn’t happen on the house only when I go out. 

 

Hoping all those who are suffering are getting brighter days. I’m nearly a year on and still working on it. 

[Remmie]

1 hour ago, Seasons said:

I can't get access to the full report. 

It could be just behavioural activation (e.g. increased exercise) as I can't see anything that points to the cold shock being the variable that's measured/changed. Even the summary looks like it's a programme of swimming without reference to the shock effect. 

Here's the full article:

Can cold water swimming treat depression?

By Dr Chris van TullekenThe Doctor Who Gave Up Drugs

13 September 2018

Jumping into the sea in winter is the most alive and present I ever feel. I get in fast - a dangerous approach if you're a beginner - when the cold shock response provokes an uncontrollable urge to inhale.

Underwater, I feel an intense mixture of burning pain and, even after doing this for years, a little panic. But it's the only time the anxious negative chatter in my head is truly silenced.

After two minutes, as my skin reaches the same temperature as the water, I start to feel comfortable and my breathing slows. After even a brief swim, I feel elated for hours and calm for days.

Like many other people who swim in cold water regularly, I love it, but I also believe it has mental health benefits.

And the first case report on cold water swimming published in British Medical Journal Case Reportsshows that it may be an effective treatment for depression.

Diving in

The Doctor Who Gave Up Drugs, a series broadcast on BBC One in 2016, which I developed and presented, followed Sarah, a 24-year-old who had been taking antidepressants since the age of 17.

Her symptoms had started earlier in her teens. When we met, she was desperate to stop her antidepressants, saying they put her in a "chemical fog".

She loved swimming and, because of my own experience, I approached Prof Mike Tipton and Dr Heather Massey, both scientists at the extreme environments laboratory at Portsmouth University.

I also spoke to their collaborator Dr Mark Harper, a consultant anaesthetist at Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals, to see if there was any scientific basis for trying out cold water swimming on Sarah.

Image captionSarah wanted to stop taking antidepressants, which she started at 17

Stress response

Outdoor exercise and the companionship of fellow swimmers can improve symptoms of depression and anxiety. But the team at Portsmouth believed there might be an effect of cold water immersion itself.

There is a convincing, biologically plausible, theory about how this might work.

Immersion in cold water evokes a stress response: a set of physiological and hormonal reactions that evolved millions of years ago to cope with a wide range of potential threats.

Animal attack, jumping in cold water and sitting an exam all elicit a similar response.

Heart rate, blood pressure and breathing rate all increase and stress hormones are released.

But, if you immerse yourself only a few times in water of 15C or less, this stress response is reduced.

However, it is not only the stress response to cold water that reduces with repeated immersions.

Cold water swimming - how to do it safely

Approach it with the same caution you would exercise - if you have heart disease, start slow and warm

Make sure you can swim and go with a friend who can swim

Start in summer/early autumn when UK sea temperatures are 15-20°C

Start shallow - a gently shelving beach, or somewhere with a ladder

Go on a calm day - the initial two to three-minute period gasp when you can inhale water is the risky bit. Relax, do as little as possible and keep your head above the water for this period

Time yourself for two to three minutes. Once your skin reaches the same temperature as the water you'll feel warm

Six three-minute swims will have an effect on your cold shock response that will last for months. As for your mood - you'll have to be the judge until there are more studies

Check out the The Outdoor Swimming Society website for safety advice and more.

Prof Tipton and Dr Massey have shown that the response to the stress of exercising at altitude is also diminished.

This is called "cross-adaptation", where one form of stress adapts the body for another.

There is increasing evidence linking depression and anxiety with the inflammation that accompanies a chronic stress response to the physical and psychological problems of modern life.

Through cross-adaptation, cold water swimming may be able to reduce this chronic stress response together with the inflammation and mental health problems that affect so many of us.

Image captionSarah and Dr van Tulleken go cold water swimming

The theory is sound, but the evidence it works is all anecdotal, apart from this case report.

Cold water swimmers describe many benefits: they never get colds and never turn the heating on in winter. Many have stories of how they came to outdoor swimming in times of grief or bereavement and found comfort, even joy, in the water.

The team at Portsmouth are starting to test these stories. A preliminary study supports the claims made about colds and further reports are being prepared about patients with a range of conditions.

'Life is good'

Since 2006, prescriptions of antidepressants have more than doubled and, while patients may take these drugs for many years, there is debate about their effectiveness.

New approaches which attempt to tackle the multiple causes of depression are badly needed.

Dr Mark Harper is cautiously optimistic. He says: "Our observations so far support the hypothesis that cold water swimming may have a range of benefits."

More than two years later, Sarah is still swimming and off all medication.

"Life is good. I still have counselling but the swimming is something I'll never turn my back on," she says.

"It helped me so much in a time of need."

Do not stop antidepressants or any other medication without discussion with your prescriber first.

 

[Skidfingers McGonical]

If you haven’t already, check out Wim Hoff Zeb. 

 

[Elite]

1 hour ago, rubble-rouser said:

 

Was it amitrypiline? That is used as a mild antidepressant and for pain relief. 

I have no idea whether it is addictive?

He never stated which one as I dismissed it at the time as I hate the side effects but if it helps then I may have to.

[Oh Buoy]

1 hour ago, Remmie said:

Here's the full article:

Can cold water swimming treat depression?

By Dr Chris van TullekenThe Doctor Who Gave Up Drugs

13 September 2018

Jumping into the sea in winter is the most alive and present I ever feel. I get in fast - a dangerous approach if you're a beginner - when the cold shock response provokes an uncontrollable urge to inhale.

Underwater, I feel an intense mixture of burning pain and, even after doing this for years, a little panic. But it's the only time the anxious negative chatter in my head is truly silenced.

After two minutes, as my skin reaches the same temperature as the water, I start to feel comfortable and my breathing slows. After even a brief swim, I feel elated for hours and calm for days.

Like many other people who swim in cold water regularly, I love it, but I also believe it has mental health benefits.

And the first case report on cold water swimming published in British Medical Journal Case Reportsshows that it may be an effective treatment for depression.

Diving in

The Doctor Who Gave Up Drugs, a series broadcast on BBC One in 2016, which I developed and presented, followed Sarah, a 24-year-old who had been taking antidepressants since the age of 17.

Her symptoms had started earlier in her teens. When we met, she was desperate to stop her antidepressants, saying they put her in a "chemical fog".

She loved swimming and, because of my own experience, I approached Prof Mike Tipton and Dr Heather Massey, both scientists at the extreme environments laboratory at Portsmouth University.

I also spoke to their collaborator Dr Mark Harper, a consultant anaesthetist at Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals, to see if there was any scientific basis for trying out cold water swimming on Sarah.

Image captionSarah wanted to stop taking antidepressants, which she started at 17

Stress response

Outdoor exercise and the companionship of fellow swimmers can improve symptoms of depression and anxiety. But the team at Portsmouth believed there might be an effect of cold water immersion itself.

There is a convincing, biologically plausible, theory about how this might work.

Immersion in cold water evokes a stress response: a set of physiological and hormonal reactions that evolved millions of years ago to cope with a wide range of potential threats.

Animal attack, jumping in cold water and sitting an exam all elicit a similar response.

Heart rate, blood pressure and breathing rate all increase and stress hormones are released.

But, if you immerse yourself only a few times in water of 15C or less, this stress response is reduced.

However, it is not only the stress response to cold water that reduces with repeated immersions.

Cold water swimming - how to do it safely

Approach it with the same caution you would exercise - if you have heart disease, start slow and warm

Make sure you can swim and go with a friend who can swim

Start in summer/early autumn when UK sea temperatures are 15-20°C

Start shallow - a gently shelving beach, or somewhere with a ladder

Go on a calm day - the initial two to three-minute period gasp when you can inhale water is the risky bit. Relax, do as little as possible and keep your head above the water for this period

Time yourself for two to three minutes. Once your skin reaches the same temperature as the water you'll feel warm

Six three-minute swims will have an effect on your cold shock response that will last for months. As for your mood - you'll have to be the judge until there are more studies

Check out the The Outdoor Swimming Society website for safety advice and more.

Prof Tipton and Dr Massey have shown that the response to the stress of exercising at altitude is also diminished.

This is called "cross-adaptation", where one form of stress adapts the body for another.

There is increasing evidence linking depression and anxiety with the inflammation that accompanies a chronic stress response to the physical and psychological problems of modern life.

Through cross-adaptation, cold water swimming may be able to reduce this chronic stress response together with the inflammation and mental health problems that affect so many of us.

Image captionSarah and Dr van Tulleken go cold water swimming

The theory is sound, but the evidence it works is all anecdotal, apart from this case report.

Cold water swimmers describe many benefits: they never get colds and never turn the heating on in winter. Many have stories of how they came to outdoor swimming in times of grief or bereavement and found comfort, even joy, in the water.

The team at Portsmouth are starting to test these stories. A preliminary study supports the claims made about colds and further reports are being prepared about patients with a range of conditions.

'Life is good'

Since 2006, prescriptions of antidepressants have more than doubled and, while patients may take these drugs for many years, there is debate about their effectiveness.

New approaches which attempt to tackle the multiple causes of depression are badly needed.

Dr Mark Harper is cautiously optimistic. He says: "Our observations so far support the hypothesis that cold water swimming may have a range of benefits."

More than two years later, Sarah is still swimming and off all medication.

"Life is good. I still have counselling but the swimming is something I'll never turn my back on," she says.

"It helped me so much in a time of need."

Do not stop antidepressants or any other medication without discussion with your prescriber first.

 

Sorry fella - I meant the journal it links about the study on this. I wanted to see the method and process they followed and what they analysed to come to this conclusion or whether the Beeb just reworded the results. 

[Oh Buoy]

For anyone looking for local services in the UK, there's a useful resource for this here: 

https://hubofhope.co.uk/

[lifetime fan]

4 hours ago, Champ said:

Have you been prescribed an alternative?

 

You want me to answer honestly? 

[Champ]

25 minutes ago, lifetime fan said:

 

You want me to answer honestly? 

Not much point otherwise 

[lifetime fan]

2 hours ago, Champ said:

Not much point otherwise 

 

It was making me more on edge, more lethargic, more lazy, less interested in anything.