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This 4-3-3 formation

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The formation isn't a problem, its not too different to what rafa had us playing.

 

The problem is the shape of the team when we lose possession. Too many are being caught ahead of the ball when we lose it, so one pass takes the opposition from their own third straight onto our back line. Young boys late equaliser was typical of our lack of shape when the ball changes possession.

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The formation isn't a problem, its not too different to what rafa had us playing.

 

It is similar.

 

But Suarez can get isolated, as we saw today. We don't get enoughbodies in the box.

 

The big difference between the formation we saw under Benitez and this formation is Gerrard would support the lone striker (Torres). Where as in this formation we have an extra body in midfield and one less attacking option in the final third.

 

The formation can work, especially if you have goal scoring wide players to help Suarez. But I don't think it is the best formation for our current squad.

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Is correct. We really could do with him at the min. Mind you we need a fuck load more than just him.

 

Can't believe we let him go.

 

We're still paying for him!

 

Crazy!

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It is similar.

 

But Suarez can get isolated, as we saw today. We don't get enoughbodies in the box.

 

The big difference between the formation we saw under Benitez and this formation is Gerrard would support the lone striker (Torres). Where as in this formation we have an extra body in midfield and one less attacking option in the final third.

 

The formation can work, especially if you have goal scoring wide players to help Suarez. But I don't think it is the best formation for our current squad.

 

I have to disagree about Suarez being isolated. I think we get more bodies in the box now as the midfield push on making a front 5, leaving only Allen deep. At times Allen has been left desperately isolated as a result, Rafa was notoriouly cautious and his cente mids and wide men sat very deep to protect the defence and full backs, offering little support to torres. Its the major reason why we have struggled to hold leads under Rodgers and until we learn to score more goals and/or change our style slightly when taking the lead its going to be a "roll of the dice" every game.

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Can't believe we let him go.

 

We're still paying for him!

 

Crazy!

 

It's unbelievable that we let him go and Cole is still here. I'm not surprised we're still paying for him either! Jesus it's depressing to think of how bad the club has been off the pitch.

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I have to disagree about Suarez being isolated. I think we get more bodies in the box now as the midfield push on making a front 5, leaving only Allen deep. At times Allen has been left desperately isolated as a result, Rafa was notoriouly cautious and his cente mids and wide men sat very deep to protect the defence and full backs, offering little support to torres. Its the major reason why we have struggled to hold leads under Rodgers and until we learn to score more goals and/or change our style slightly when taking the lead its going to be a "roll of the dice" every game.

 

Our last two away games Suarez has been upfront on his own. The formation has been more 4-5-1 than 4-3-3.

 

The two ahead of Allen have a tough job, the most difficult posiiton to play in the formation. They have to do the majority of the pressing, need energy to get forward and back. At times they get forward, but don't get back. Others times they don't get forward due to the attack already being broken down as Suarez is isolated or they can't keep going up and down the pitch due to a lack of energy (Gerrard).

 

I think it is a tough formation and you need some special players to make it work. Barcelona make that formation work due to having those special players and the fact they have 80% possession. We don't!

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When Rodgers first arrived he introduced a number of "general rules" to the players. One of these was that he expected his teams to win the ball back within 15 seconds of giving it away. The reason this isn't achievable at present is because the shape is all wrong when we lose the ball, only Allen is goalside of the ball when its lost in the final third and that results in (i) a lack of sustained pressure (ii) dangerous counter-attacks from the opposition.

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When Rodgers first arrived he introduced a number of "general rules" to the players. One of these was that he expected his teams to win the ball back within 15 seconds of giving it away. The reason this isn't achievable at present is because the shape is all wrong when we lose the ball, only Allen is goalside of the ball when its lost in the final third and that results in (i) a lack of sustained pressure (ii) dangerous counter-attacks from the opposition.

 

was it not 7?

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When Rodgers first arrived he introduced a number of "general rules" to the players. One of these was that he expected his teams to win the ball back within 15 seconds of giving it away. The reason this isn't achievable at present is because the shape is all wrong when we lose the ball, only Allen is goalside of the ball when its lost in the final third and that results in (i) a lack of sustained pressure (ii) dangerous counter-attacks from the opposition.

 

Yeah it will work better when Lucas is fit and Allen is higher up the pitch pressing.

 

Won't solve all the issues though.

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was it not 7?

 

Take your word for it.

 

Yes looking forward to Lucas' return. Allen isn't comfortable doing the role he's being asked at the moment, want to see what he can offer going forward.

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I must admit, I am not a big fan of this formation.

 

I think for it to work you need special players - like Barcelona have.

 

You need all front three to get goals. Currently only Suarez looks capable and the two wide players aren't getting enough goals.

 

We don't have a midfielder who is getting goals either, at least one of these players needs to be chipping in.

 

Defensively I think it is tough on the midfield players, especially the two that press and I don't think Gerrard is fit enough to do that job for 90 minutes anymore.

 

With the addition of two attacking wide players (Walcott and Sturridge for example) and a fit Lucas, enabling Allen to push high as one of the pressing players, it will work better and probably a better time to judge.

 

But with the players we have at the moment 4-2-3-1 would be a better fit, Suarez would get more support and it would be more balanced.

 

 

Good post especially the top half , think you're spot on about that.

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I prefer 442, or variants thereof, because I think there's a lot of value in 'pairs', and learning to play with a certain person and build up an understanding with them.

 

I'd love to see Suarez with a partner, for instance.

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It really is just different shades of grey. It's funny how quickly people forget how isolated Torres used to be in Benitez's variant on that formation. The reason he scored so many goals is because he was that good. The formation didn't help him at all. At the end of the day all it comes down to is that you have one man up front.

 

If you play one man or two men up front it is still important to get more men in the box when the ball is wide. Man Utd have been doing it for years and it's why I think they have been the most successful team. You don't have to be Kevin Keegan to be attacking and accept you are going to concede some goals. It was a thing that used to annoy me in the Benitez years and it's still something we haven't got in the habit of doing. Under Benitez we permanently had the shackles on until the last 15 mins of games or unless it was a must win game. It worked great for him one season but eventually cost us the chance of winning the league.

 

Until we get out of this mentality we will always struggle to break teams down.

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A 4-2-3-1 with Lucas and Allen as the 2 in front of the back line, with Gerrard in the middle, supported by Sterling and Suso (attacking) or Jonjo and Henderson (bit more defensive) with Suarez being on top.

 

Enrique and Jonson supplementing accordingly.

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It really is just different shades of grey. It's funny how quickly people forget how isolated Torres used to be in Benitez's variant on that formation. The reason he scored so many goals is because he was that good. The formation didn't help him at all. At the end of the day all it comes down to is that you have one man up front.

 

I disagree, I think the formation suited Torres perfectly, as it gave him space to exploit.

 

He was also not totally isolated as Gerrard had a free role behind him.

 

At times Suarezis totally isolated as he doesn't have someone behind him in that free role, where I think we should be playing Gerrard.

 

The support can come in different ways, for example the two wide players can get closer to Suarez. Something Kuyt was very good at doing under Benitez.

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Regardless of formation,I much prefer the 4231 and its variables,we dont have any players who make the right type of runs into dangerous areas that create chances for themselves or others.Take a look at the amount of times nobody makes a near post run when a wide midfield/forward has the ball in wide attacking areas.

 

When Henderson and Allen play together Henderson is guilty at times of leaving Allen very isolated when the attack breaks down.

 

433 is great with top players such as Barca and Chelski when Mourinho was in charge.

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I disagree, I think the formation suited Torres perfectly, as it gave him space to exploit.

 

He was also not totally isolated as Gerrard had a free role behind him.

 

At times Suarezis totally isolated as he doesn't have someone behind him in that free role, where I think we should be playing Gerrard.

 

The support can come in different ways, for example the two wide players can get closer to Suarez. Something Kuyt was very good at doing under Benitez.

 

People got far too carried away with it in my opinion.

 

The way I always seen it was that it was very good defensively. It really stifled other teams and we became literally the hardest team to break down in world football and that's no exaggeration. No matter if you were Derby County or Man United you sturggle to score against us. It put us on a level playing field with every other team in the world because it meant that the only way to beat us was with a stroke of brilliance or a stroke of luck.

 

The only problem with it and it turned out to be a fucking big problem was it meant we were very lop sided. We did not get players forward anywhere near enough. It felt like hundreds of our games were 0-0 at half time and well beyond. We did, however, have Gerrard and Torres at their peak of their powers and bang in form. More often than not they bailed the team out and made us the team that got that stroke of luck or had the piece of brilliance to win the game.

 

People somehow think that this made Benitez's teams attacking. It didn't at all. We were negative as anything with two brilliant players acting as impact players and it worked for a while. A lot of that time that people remember it working so great, it actually wasn't. It was only when Gerrard got pulled back into midfield and other attackers were thrown on that we actually came back and won the games in the season we finished second.

 

In the end they both came out of that form and we lost our solidness at the back and we fell to pieces. Everyone was suddenly shocked but it was a fucking accident waiting to happen. The team Benitez assembled which was great was being stifled by his own tactics and substitutions. A few parts got unhappy and either left or dropped in form and the whole thing fell to pieces.

 

The problem with playing one man up front creates so many problems and not just the obvious type. You begin to rely on that forward because he plays every game. He gets flogged unlike forwards at other top clubs. When he does get injured you don't have a forward of similar quality to come in who is match fit because nobody that good is willing to sit on the bench for that long in the first place.

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It worked brilliantly because Alonso could stretch the field in any direction at any time. No one in the current midfield can.

 

As for supporting Suarez it is difficult because:

 

A - he really does not want to hold the ball up, he wants to turn and run.

B - The midfielders we have played at the top of the triangle are slow.

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It all comes back down to the back four.

 

Did anyone else watch on Revista or something when Rafa was talking about Barcelona and showing examples of how they work?

 

They pressed in one half of the field and it made them look like they had 20 men because it just congested the opposition half of the field. The Barca centre backs were pushed right up onto the halfway line and then it was just carnage, with 8 Barca outfield players trying to press the ball and usually winning it. However, in the event of the oppositon breaking, it was dealt with by the centre backs and goalkeeper taking up intelligent positions and showing strength and speed to either slow down the attack long enough for Mascherano or Busquets to nick the ball back, or forcing them into wide areas and then the move fizzing out. Any aerial balls into the box were swallowed up by Pique and Puyol. Again, intelligent positioning and a desire to get their head on the ball. That ball is then mostly won back by Barca because, again, their players are on their toes.

 

For me, we never look like we're comfortable on the halfway line as a defence. The Skrtel and Agger thing, although it looks lovely at times, is incredibly brittle. They don't use their heads, they go in blazing. Or, they back off. There is seldom a middle ground where they jockey the attackers and hold them up. The likes of Gerrard are 30 yards behind play by the time the opposition get to the edge of our area on a break. Now, I'm up for blaming Gerrard a bit, but it's the centre backs for me where we need to look at changes. £25m for Skrtel was mad money.

You don't need anything fancy from your centre backs in a tiki-taka-shanty-tits high pressure game, you just need them to be good, brave, athletic defenders with some common sense.

 

Part of me thinks that David Luiz could be a great addition if Chelsea let him go on the cheap, but there's no chance of us getting him. People say Luiz is shite, and he is in the Chelsea formation, but I think he'd be ace as a high-pressing centre back next to someone a bit more solid, and with Lucas helping them out. But ask Luiz to settle down and be a conventional defender, to just jog between lines of his penalty box, nah, he gets bored, you can tell he wants more.

 

It's caraaazy, but I think something like this could work for us, by way of example...

 

---------------------pep------------------------

-----------Johnson---------Coates--------------

Coady---------------Lucas-----------------Agger

-------------Allen------------Suso-----------------

Borini----------------Suarez-------------------Enrique

 

 

I'm having a hard time finding a place for Gerrard in all this. This team needs 100% committment and hard running, I dont see that from Gerrard.

 

I think someone like Coady and Morgan could come in tomorrow and improve this side, they just want it more than the likes of Henderson and Downing and Sahin, you can't coach that. Of course, longer term, I'd like to see Johnson go back out to right back, but in the meantime he could easily cover at centre back and improve our situation.

 

Of course, I'm not expecting people to see beyond the Gerrard dropped comment, but I'm not writing for the Daily Mail, I'm aiming for readers with the ability to process information they see in front of them, now, not from 2008. If we want this to work then we have to win the ball back quicker and shut the opposition down sooner, and we need players who really want that and understand what the side should be doing.

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---------------------pep------------------------

-----------Johnson---------Coates--------------

Coady---------------Lucas-----------------Agger

-------------Allen------------Suso-----------------

Borini----------------Suarez-------------------Enrique

 

cookiemonsterwtfisthis.jpg

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If we play a middle three of Allen, Stevie and Henderson it turns an attacking formation into a negative one.

 

Our problems of late are a completely toothless midfield that lays too far back and puts all the burden on the three most forward players to create on their own. 4-4-2 with Enrique on the wing has looked much more dynamic.

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