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Manchester City 1 Liverpool 1 (Nov 8 2020)

     

     
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    Dave Usher

We usually lose here so this is a good point. The onus is on the home team to win these fixtures, particularly when they’re behind in the table, so it’s a better point for us than it is for City. So I’m not disappointed or upset by this, especially as neither side deserved to win the game. The result is fine, the performance was ok and it’s a point gained on the last couple of seasons.

 

That said, we probably should be winning this as, whisper it, Man City are really not that great anymore. They’re still good, on their day very good even, but they aren’t great. If you look at that eleven that took to the field against us, man for man we’re considerably better in most positions, even without Van Dijk, Fabinho and Thiago, who all would have started had they been available.

 

City just aren’t as strong as they were. De Bruyne is phenomenal, Sterling is always a danger and Jesus is a constant goal threat. Other than that their side is very ‘meh’ these days. Still better than most and very easy on the eye, but there's been a big drop off from where they were and where they are. It’s the name and reputation they’ve built up under Guardiola’s time there that scares you rather than that actual line up they put out these days.

 

So really, if this game was played ten times I think we probably should win maybe five or six minimum, with the rest mostly draws and maybe one or at most two losses. So why didn’t we win this then? Lots of reasons but first and foremost because we didn’t make it count enough when we had them reeling in the opening 25 minutes. That was the time to make hay while the sun was shining, but we only scored once.

 

City were always going to come back into the game and have a spell of their own so we needed to get ahead before that happened. Klopp’s surprising team selection caught them on the hop and they couldn’t cope with it in the early stages. All the talk beforehand was whether it would be Firmino or Jota starting but Klopp shocked everyone by picking them both in what was virtually a 4-2-4 formation. Call it 4-4-2 if you like and at times it was, but that’s as close to 4-2-4 as you’ll see in the modern game.

 

Firmino wasn’t playing deep, he was in a traditional front two alongside Mo. That was the big surprise to me. He wasn’t playing a deeply withdrawn striker’s role and he wasn’t a number ten in a 4-2-3-1, he was playing as a second striker just a little bit off Mo. City weren’t prepared for it and we tore into them early on. As Neville pointed out on commentary, virtually every single pass we played was forward as we tried to get in behind them at every opportunity.

 

I loved that. There are two ways to play against City. Let them have the ball and counter attack, or just play direct and get in behind their high line. Playing the first way doesn’t really suit us that much as we’re a front foot team. So the all out attack philosophy is something I’m well on board with. I liked what Klopp tried to do and it worked brilliantly for a while. 

 

We led through a well taken Salah penalty after Mané had turned Kyle Walker in the box and been brought down. That was some lovely football on the left. Lots of quick, intricate passing and direct movement that City couldn’t cope with. Roy Keane was absolutely scathing of Walker at half time and it was fucking hilarious. “Mané’s done well but he’s up against an idiot” is arguably the best bit of punditry all season. Closely followed by “I keep hearing that he’s playing well but I don’t see it. He’s torty years old and he’s a train wreck”.

 

I see why Walker gets the stick he does and he does make mistakes but I think overall he’s pretty good and not the disaster some make him out to be. He’s often got a mad moment in him but he’s City’s best defender and he gets them out of trouble a hell of a lot. So I thought Keane’s criticism was over the top but still fucking hilarious. I didn’t think it was especially bad play by Walker in the first instance when he got turned. He just got tricked by Sadio and thought he was playing a one two with Robbo. Instead of playing the return pass though Mané turned and Walker was beat. Dangling the leg out like that was poor judgement though and yeah, kind of typical of what we often see him do.

 

The goal had been coming since the start though. We looked dangerous every time we went forward and Bobby had a couple of early half chances he couldn’t quite convert. Actually, I should probably mention that City wanted a free-kick just before we scored. Sterling was on the attack and was bumped by Jota but he stayed on his feet because he wasn’t in the box. His intention was obviously to keep on running, wait for another challenge in the area and then claim a penalty. That’s what he does.

 

Nevertheless, that was defo a foul and the ref should have pulled play back and given it. He didn’t though, he waved play on and a minute or so later Walker is bring down Sadio. City’s players were angry and confronted the ref but that’s standard stuff for them as they’ve never seen a decision they couldn’t dispute. In this case they had a point though as that was definitely a foul on Sterling. The boy who cried wolf perhaps applies here.

 

The first moment of danger for us was self inflicted as Gini got caught in possession which allowed De Bruyne to get clear on the right. As you’d expect, he delivered a great ball across the box that found Sterling, but Alisson stood big and made a good block before Matip hacked clear from near the line.

 

That brief scare apart it was all going well for us but then one lapse in judgement cost us. I knew we were in trouble the second Gini chose to charge out to close down Walker and left De Bruyne all alone in the middle. You could see that problem develop almost immediately and I actually gave an audible “oh no Gini” as soon as it happened. A few seconds later the ball is in the net. 

 

Call it sour grapes if you like but I don’t think Jesus meant that touch at all. Maybe I’m not giving him the credit he deserves and I'm biased because he's permanently got a face like an over indulged kid who's finally been told he's not having ice cream for dessert and he doesn't know how to deal with it. He annoys the fuck out of me because he always looks hard done by and is constantly complaining about something. On a scale of punchable faces he's somewhere in between Jacob Rees-Mogg and Richarlison. 

 

So yeah I think it was a lucky touch and he mis-controlled it. He reacted very quickly and finished well with a toe poke, so fair play to him for his sharpness but I don’t believe he meant that touch that wrong footed Trent. Doesn't really matter if he meant or not though does it?

 

I thought Matip could have blocked that if he’d actually made a challenge. It was a timid effort from him as he could have thrown himself in front of it and made a block, but instead he tip toed in there and arrived too late. Probably a lack of match sharpness, which is understandable. Overall he was fucking boss though and it’s great having him back, for however long it may last.

 

As for Gini, I think Carragher’s explanation of it at half time is probably spot on. Usually, in the 4-3-3 system we always play, Gini’s job would be to fly out there and close down the full back if Mané wasn’t in position to do it. So what he’s done is just muscle memory, it’s what he always does. In that split second it’s understandable that he’s made that decision but really he needed to just let Walker have it and ensure the pass to De Bruyne wasn’t on.

 

By and large we did a good job of restricting De Bruyne, but he got in down that right hand side again soon after and it cost us a penalty. I knew it would be given even though clearly that should never, ever be given as a penalty. Unfortunately the cunts in charge of making rules are doing everything they can to kill football, and they’re succeeding.

 

Kev the Red missed the pen so I can say this without it sounding like I’m just angry about it costing us a goal. Football is becoming almost unwatchable because of what the law makers have done with offside, handball and VAR. It’s genuinely shit and it’s ruining games. The penalty given against Wolves earlier that day was a fucking disgrace too. Then there’s the ludicrous offside against my boy Bamford in the Leeds game the day before.

 

This isn’t football. It’s shit. They’re ruining the game with their traffic warned like overly officious, jobsworth fucking bullshit. I’d love to get these cunts in a room and… I don’t know, blow it up. Honestly, these faceless, nameless, busy bastards have taken a great sport and made it almost unwatchable. 

 

There is literally nothing Joe Gomez could have done to prevent that ball hitting his arm. In fact, you can see he actually did everything humanly possible to avoid it. His arm isn’t stretched out to make himself bigger. It’s in a natural running motion, but when he realises the ball is heading straight for it he actually pulls it back into his body, turns his chest away and almost manages to avoid being hit by the ball.

 

I’m not going to have a go at Craig Pawson for giving the penalty because I’d be willing to bet if you were able to talk to him privately he’d say it’s not a penalty in a million years and he didn’t want to give it. But he has no choice. Not just because the VAR probably told him he has to give it, but because he himself knows that this is the fucking bullshit that the lawmakers want now.

 

I would like to know how the Gomez one was any different to the Cancelo incident in the second half. VAR looked at that and did nothing. Why? The ball hits Cancelo’s elbow. It wasn’t deliberate, he tried to pull his arms into his body, but it hit him on the elbow and it was a goal bound shot. So how is that not a penalty when the Gomez one was? 

 

Of course neither of them should be penalties in a normal world, but this isn’t a normal world. It’s a world where stupid cunts are allowed to make stupid rules that everyone can see are just fucking stupid. Football is basically just a microcosm of normal society I guess.

 

I’m so disillusioned with it all right now and it isn’t specifically about decisions that have gone against us. I mean yeah, that hurts more on a personal level (and there have been some fucking stinking ones) but it’s more than that. It’s the game as a whole. I’m genuinely distressed and irritated when I see a goal disallowed because Bamford is pointing where he wants the ball played and his arm is deemed to be offside even though his feet are on by about a fucking yard. How is that good for the game?

 

I’ve mentioned it before, but I was even fuming when Lindelof conceded a pen for handball a month or so back. It was scandalous and I didn’t even care that it was Man United. This shit is far bigger than club rivalries. It’s about the game we all love and how it’s being ruined by cunts who seem to have no idea about the sport that pays their mortgages.

 

Anyway, thankfully De Bruyne put the penalty wide otherwise we might be talking about another Goodison style screw job. That first half had been played at break neck speed and there were chances at both ends. We had the better of it and Emerson was incredibly lucky to see a shot from Trent squirm loose and under his legs but somehow stay close enough to him that he was able to dive on it ahead of Jota.

 

Just prior to that we had a glorious chance to score when Henderson’s incredible pass over the shoulder of Diaz sent Sadio clear. Ederson came out and for a split second the right foot chip was on as Mané cut inside, but he took an extra touch and the chance was gone. Eventually he worked it to Mo who played in Trent for the shot, but if Sadio could have got that chip away what a goal we’d have been talking about.

 

Ederson got away with another erratic moment in the second half when he needlessly parried a deflected Salah shot straight to Jota, but unfortunately by the time he got it under control his shot was weak and lacked conviction. Frustrating. Jota didn’t look anywhere near as lively as he has done of late, but a lot of that may have been down to the amount of defending he was expected to do, especially after the break when City were much more in control than they had been.

 

We didn’t really do anything in the second half and I thought Klopp should have changed it and got an extra midfielder on. I liked the initial idea of blitzing them with four forwards, but when Guardiola rested to it and changed City’s shape to combat it, that’s when we should have gone back to the normal 4-3-3 I felt.

 

The four up top was worth a try and it certainly caught City on their heels to begin with, but I don’t think I want to see it too often. I thought Firmino played ok and I don’t have anything negative to say about his performance. What I would say is I don’t think he’s special enough that we need to change a tried and trusted set up so we can keep him in the team. He’s either in a front three on merit or he’s on the bench.

 

In fairness to Klopp I think his hand was forced a little by Thiago and Fabinho being out. Do we really think he’d have picked this team if either or both of those two were available? I doubt it myself. After half an hour of this game we lost the initiative. I wouldn’t say that City had it either, but they did take it away from us and after that it was just an even contest.

 

I thought the forwards got a bit wasteful in possession and the rest of the team were trying to hit them too early instead of playing through City a bit more patiently. I’d have switched Jota and Mo at half time. Putting Salah on the right would have forced Cancelo into staying back more and given him a lot to think about, while we saw in midweek how dangerous Jota is running in behind. We definitely overdid that early ball over the top or into the channels and it gave City no trouble in the second half. They were waiting for it and cut it out time after time.

 

You know what this game really needed? Thiago. He’d have made all the difference to us in a game like this. Hendo and Gini were outstanding (although Gini did caught on the ball two or three times) in terms of the ground they covered and how they used the ball, but having an extra man in there would have made it so much easier for them. Ideally that would have been Thiago, but Fabinho was a big miss too.

 

Eventually Klopp changed after about an hour, but surprisingly it was Big Shaq who came on for Bobby. He was good. Very neat and tidy and he helped out defensively too from that right sided position. We just weren’t particularly dangerous anymore and in that second half it looked like both teams were playing not to lose rather than to try and win. City probably pushed harder than we did, but they seemed mainly concerned about not over-committing and filling spaces to prevent us hitting them with our speed.

 

Whatever changes Guardiola made to combat the early storm we unleashed certainly worked and both teams kind of cancelled each other out in the second half. Trent went off with what looked like a torn calf and was replaced by Milner, who did a great job against Sterling. Doesn’t look good for Trent that one as calf injuries are absolute bastards to overcome as when you think it’s fine it often isn’t.

 

Everyone is going to have to get used to this though as players will be dropping like flies over the next few months. This is why Klopp wanted five subs but it was foolishly voted down and now this is going to be the norm. The smaller clubs felt the five subs would be an advantage for the bigger clubs, but it’s actually not. If anything it’s the opposite. You’ve got some teams like, say, Burnley for example, who play the same eleven every week and have very little squad depth. That’s why they didn’t want the five subs, because they can’t bring Shaqiri, Milner, Mahrez, Jesus, Greenwood, Pogba etc off the bench.

 

Understandable, but what happens in the Christmas and New Year period when their players are fucked and starters are pulling up with torn hammy’s all over the shop? The teams with the deeper squads will be able to cope better than the Burnleys and Evertons of this world, but the five subs would have helped the smaller clubs keep their starters fresher.

 

Anyway, there’s nothing we can do about that now and Trent is just the latest casualty of what is likely to be a long list. This season is going to be a war of attrition as much as anything else. We’ve lost Virgil, there’s been no sign of Thiago since the derby and now Trent is going to be out for a while. Keita and Matip are back, but for how long? Presumably Ox won’t be too far away now and hopefully Fabinho will available after the international break.

 

Star man is tricky as no-one really stood out that much. Sadio was good, Robbo was Robbo, Gomez and Matip played well but I’ll go for Hendo I think. I wouldn’t argue if any of you say it should be one of the others I just mentioned, but if I had to pick one then it’s the skipper, but only just. Alisson deserves a mention too as we needed him to be alert on a couple of occasions and he was. Some of his kicking was shite though.

 

 

Team: Alisson; Alexander-Arnold (Milner), Matip, Gomez, Robertson; Henderson, Wijnaldum; Jota, Firmino (Shaqiri), Salah, Mané:

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"Van Dijk, Fabinho and Thiago, who all would have started had they been available" this is the key - they were missing Aguero and he might have started, other than that they were full strength. If we had 2 of those 3 available (maybe even 1 of them) we'd have won comfortably.

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The ball hitting their arms was where the similarity ended. One was at point-blank range, one wasn't. I'm not saying either should have been given, but the case for the penno against Gomez was marginally less preposterous than Cancelo's.

 

In the second half, the way we passed it between Matip, Gomez and Ali only to lose possession after a poor touch or a shit pass forward was excruciating. We gave them every opportunity. I was curled up into a ball, dying.

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Equally though I could argue that because Cancelo was facing down a shot, he should have put his hands behind his back as has become the norm these days. Gomez couldn't do that as he was sprinting back into the box.

 

Neither one was a pen, but if you give one you have to give the other is how I'd look at it.

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Must mention that prick Tyler on commentary, speaking about the fuckin rat. Something along the lines of Gomez will he keeping out of the way of Sterling after last time before they joined up for England. 

Fuck me the delusional prick, it was the cowardly rat who attacked Joe like the fuckin coward that he is. He wouldn't have done that to anyone else in the squad. Tyler is a prick and the rat a coward. 

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I thought for a horrible moment that Alisson was going to have to go off when he seemed to hurt his shoulder in the second half. The idea of Adrian playing the final half hour of a game like that would be the stuff of nightmares.

 

I'd forgotten about that penalty incident in the second half, but I remember being really pissed off at the time about it. For me it's not just the fact that they're ruining football with these bullshit interpretations of the offside law and handball rule, it's the fact that there's not even any consistency in how they're applied. Of course it shouldn't have been a penalty, but if you're giving the one in the first half where you're basically saying any incident where it hits the hand is a penalty no matter how close or unavoidable it is, then you have to give the second one as well. It was the same when Spurs drew at home to Newcastle the other week. Newcastle got a ridiculous late penalty, but it was made worst by the fact Spurs weren't awarded one for a virtually identical incident earlier on in the game. There's no consistency or accountability, and it's getting to the point where games seem more likely to be decided on the whim of the officials than how well a team plays. 

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I don’t think this report emphasis how good the quality of the first half was. It was absolutely brilliant from both sides. 
 

I also wouldn’t expect us to win at the Emptyhad 6/5 times out of 10. Although I agree they are as good as they were a couple of years ago (Kompany, Silva, Sane and an ageing Fernandinho haven’t been adequately replaced) they are still a fine, fine football side and in the top 3 in Europe. 
 

I think the report down plays how good Citeh were yesterday or how good they still are in general. 
 

I do agree though that even with VVD, Fabinho and Thiago out, we are still a better that them though. My inclination is we’ll finish above them come May. 

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Totally agree with everything there, a draw was fair. As you say, and similar to a couple of times we've played them lately, we didn't make the most of our spell on top.

 

I'd like to know how many times we've been screwed by VAR as opposed to how often we've benefited. And by benefited I mean had a decision that is just plain wrong go for us, not decisions that are correctly overturned?

 

It's good technology, but it's being operated by absolute fucknuggets. 

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para 20, this isnt football it's shit....etc... the nameless busy bastards have taken a great sport and made it almost unwatchable, Dave you've summed it up perfectly exactly how i feel about the game we all love,  even if they  change things they'll probably fuck it up again  and confuse us even more 

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Nah, I’m not having that the Sterling one before our pen was a foul. If that was a foul then so was the shoulder barge on Salah a few minutes earlier at their end. Neither were for me.

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Great report as ever. 

 

I was irrationally annoyed with the fact someone (Shaq ideally) didn't have a blast with the last kick of the game. Prob too far out to expect anything but it was pissing down at that point so may have been spilled by the keeper or deflected. Certainly worth a go more than the pitiful effort that we produced. 

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13 minutes ago, DaveTucker said:

Great report as ever. 

 

I was irrationally annoyed with the fact someone (Shaq ideally) didn't have a blast with the last kick of the game. Prob too far out to expect anything but it was pissing down at that point so may have been spilled by the keeper or deflected. Certainly worth a go more than the pitiful effort that we produced. 

Yeah we could do with pulling the trigger sometimes, especially against quality teams who defend well, we rarely thread the needle against these teams. 

 

Was annoying that match of the day didn't even show our handball penalty shout let alone debate it. 

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Shaq 100% should have had a shot, especially as none of the defenders wanted to go up and Matip started to go and then didn't commit to it and the ball sailed harmless over his head. Gomez went up and Klopp yelled at him to go back.

 

So yeah, let the little man hit it.

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1 hour ago, Anubis said:

Nah, I’m not having that the Sterling one before our pen was a foul. If that was a foul then so was the shoulder barge on Salah a few minutes earlier at their end. Neither were for me.

 

Can't remember the one on Mo but that Sterling one is given 9 times out of 10.

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5 minutes ago, dave u said:

 

Can't remember the one on Mo but that Sterling one is given 9 times out of 10.

 

The one last year on Origi at Old Trafford wasn't - robbing City to get even with United.

 

 

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The foul (or non-foul) on Sterling really is inconsequential to Mane being fouled almost a minute later, imho.

 

It's not like we went up the pitch right away to immediately get the penalty in the same phase of play. City won the ball twice after the initial incident, effectively meaning there were 3 different phases of play. Of course, their players were going to whinge over it but doing so was straw-clutching at its finest.

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Of course neither of them should be penalties in a normal world.

 

We will just have to let our expert Dermot clear this up.

"What I would say is that it was the stance taken over the weekend for whatever reason."

Fuckin brilliant Dermot, money for old rope.

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Or we leave it to a blue shite ref to take an unbiased view.

 

The new interpretation of the handball law as well as VAR have brought it more into focus

 

As a (grassroots) ref I have to be 110% certain before I award any penalty

There are incidents which I think I'm 80% certain of and if I had VAR I would award them but the thought of giving a howler and basically a team a goal puts me off

 

Take the Salah pen last week

No grassroots ref is giving that as a pen - they would get laughed out of the ground - but he goes to ground ref points to the spot knowing that if there was no contact he can reverse his decision - he then sees the incident and convinces himself that the minimal contact is sufficient for him that he's not given a howler

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7 hours ago, DalyanPete said:

Of course neither of them should be penalties in a normal world.

 

We will just have to let our expert Dermot clear this up.

"What I would say is that it was the stance taken over the weekend for whatever reason."

Fuckin brilliant Dermot, money for old rope.

 

Another baldy proving my theory correct....

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2 hours ago, Captain Howdy said:

Am I the only one who thinks it was a penalty? I would have been fuming if that was City and it wasn’t given.

Yes, yes you are.

 

I genuinely haven't heard ANYONE else say it was!

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6 hours ago, DalyanPete said:

Or we leave it to a blue shite ref to take an unbiased view.

 

The new interpretation of the handball law as well as VAR have brought it more into focus

 

As a (grassroots) ref I have to be 110% certain before I award any penalty

There are incidents which I think I'm 80% certain of and if I had VAR I would award them but the thought of giving a howler and basically a team a goal puts me off

 

Take the Salah pen last week

No grassroots ref is giving that as a pen - they would get laughed out of the ground - but he goes to ground ref points to the spot knowing that if there was no contact he can reverse his decision - he then sees the incident and convinces himself that the minimal contact is sufficient for him that he's not given a howler

 

I totally agree that in Sunday league or any lower level footy that Mo would not have been given a pen for that and I also agree that he shouldn't get it. Football at that level is a lot less cynical and more honest. 

 

In the Premier League though, it's 100% a pen all day because they play almost a different sport in terms of contact and what is and isn't a foul. If a player is kicked and he goes down (regardless of whether he throws himself or is genuinely felled), he's getting a pen almost every time in the professional game.

 

Not saying it's right, but that's the way it is.

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57 minutes ago, dave u said:

 

I totally agree that in Sunday league or any lower level footy that Mo would not have been given a pen for that and I also agree that he shouldn't get it. Football at that level is a lot less cynical and more honest. 

 

In the Premier League though, it's 100% a pen all day because they play almost a different sport in terms of contact and what is and isn't a foul. If a player is kicked and he goes down (regardless of whether he throws himself or is genuinely felled), he's getting a pen almost every time in the professional game.

 

Not saying it's right, but that's the way it is.

Would agree with you but, his opening  gambit is the new handball rule, quick leap to Salah's pen which is not related.

Maybe he's just a thick bitter twat?

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