PODCAST: Should we sign another midfielder?

MAJOR JUDE BELLINGHAM NEWS!*
 

*major bummer. 

Good discussion. Totally agree with Dave: we cannot stockpile players so it’s all about one in, one out for me. I definitely think next summer is about at least two midfielders too (possibly three, if we also get a Calvin Ramsay type signing in there).
 

They clearly want Bellingham and think they’ve got a great chance. I would imagine there’s a relationship there from when we enquired about him when he left Birmingham. That’s not to say it’s nailed on though and I must admit that I feel twitchy about such a coveted player remaining on the open market as we cannot get into a bidding war with the oil cunts, no matter what conversations have taken place behind the scenes.
 

Assuming a deal for now is impossible (and it seems that’s the case), I think we should move heaven and earth to do a Keita-style deal for him now so we know we’ve got him for next summer. I haven’t seen loads of him playing, but I’ve seen a fair bit and what I have is superb. His impact in Germany at such a young age is incredible too but leaving that aside, knowing Klopp really wants him is all the reassurance I need.
 

In terms of the Sancho comparison, I think that’s unfair as Sancho made a disastrous choice of club. Not only are The Mancs a complete basket case, but they’re a basket case that plays in a completely different way to the way he’d built his game and reputation in Dortmund. That’s emphatically not the case with us.  
 

In short though, my reaction to Bellingham  is similar to the one I had when we were first linked to Virgil: he’s the perfect fit and worth both waiting for and blowing the bank on. 
 

So a preemptive strike for Bellingham would be my first priority, but I’d also like us to move for someone else assuming we can move someone on. I feel completely open minded about who that should be, other than to say it should be someone in the club’s favourite age bracket of 23-25 who’s ready to explode. They’ll have a number of long term targets in mind in that category and I’ve no doubt any one of them would be great. However, as Dave said on the pod, I’d only do that if we were moving someone on; and also like Dave, Naby would be the one for me. 
 

Finally, I wonder if the Thiago injury might precipitate a change in formation to 4231. Certainly, I think Hendo and Fab works well as a double pivot and there are loads of options for the No.10 position behind, what I think has to be, Darwin. I don’t feel strongly either way about the formation, but I’d like to see Harvey start on Monday night and a change in formation might facilitate that more effectively with him playing behind Núñez and ahead of the midfield two. 

I see the Coutinho comparison when it comes to how he moves with the ball, but have people seen the passing range to really justify the comparison in terms of a midfielder? 

On Curtis, again, I pretty much agree with Dave word for word. I think a loan move would be a disaster for him as his confidence would plummet. His identity is very much tied up in being a Liverpool player. The time may come when that’s no longer the case, but I think it’d backfire to do that to him now. 
 

The biggest issue for me though is Brownie’s point: he misses too many games. In my view, the most important thing for him this season is to get fit and then remain so for the entire season because he will definitely get opportunities and that will then accelerate his development, because who doesn’t develop under Klopp when in the team?

I’m only halfway through, but I’m really enjoying this Curtis Jones podcast. 

Yes we 100 percent should sign another midfielder I'm not really arsed about the one in one out, feels like an arbitrary squad limit. Maybe not 100 percent because they could be trying and being told no chance by selling clubs so we should be at least 100 percent trying for this window. To be a bit glib or a lot glib I'd rather we risk the cash this window than risk not putting up a title challenge this season, I feel next season we need to buy two anyway.

Whatever happens I dont want to see a Fabinho, Thiago, Henderson, Firmino first 11 lineup. It feels like it lacks dynamism I'd expect Matip to create something through the middle more than all of them. If you've watched our young players though unlike me then youre in a better position to rate them and feel comfortable about things than I do, I dont see it with Jones and I think Elliot looks decent for his age but I'm not blown away so I don't want to rely on their input too much for this season at least.

No we won't sign anybody. Maybe a kid or two, contract renewals. 

I don’t rate Jones at all. Injury prone and not very good. No thanks 

It’s not stockpiling to bring in a desperately needed midfielder this summer, it’s horseshit to claim otherwise. 
 

Ox and his salary is gone next year, Keita should be fucked off too, Milner will hopefully step into a coaching role at the club and Hendo should move into the role Milner has played the last couple of years. 
 

That leaves two outstanding midfielders in Thiago and Fab, neither of whom have any sort of fitness record to scream about. 
 

And 3 kids, none of whom have proved themselves as being able to play a prolonged spell in a title chasing side. 
 

We need to be buying at least 2 top quality midfielders for the first XI and potentially a third for the squad.
 

The chances of us getting them both next summer is virtually zero. 
 

The club can afford to bring in at least one this summer, allowing them time to settle in and get used to the demands Klopp places on his midfielders in his system. 
 

The need is there.
The money is there. 
The will obviously isn’t. 

Are we competing with the cheating Manc scum, or are we ‘also rans’?

Buy buy buy baby, buy buy buy. 

I don't think it's ever going to happen for Curtis Jones unfortunately. Can see flashes of the ability but just never going to quite be good enough.

Already feels like our whole season hinges on our midfield. Can the first 4 be fit enough often enough to have at least three of them available on the pitch. And then beyond them can the young lads, in particular Elliott and Carvalho step up and be the difference makers. I hope so but instinct tells me it may be a year or two too soon. If we don't have it then a very good team can start to look like just an ok team quite quickly. Does feel like we're a player short.

Deadline day loan deal tempting Scott Parker out of retirement on the cards here

Last season we struggled a lot in first half of season to put out same midfield two games in a row, it really was a revolving door game to game and we were rarely able to put out our "best 3" ....2nd half of season it settled more and it is no surprise to see our results improved.

Take the much criticised home draw with Brighton for example - we started that game with Keita, Henderson and Jones and Keita went off injured after 20 mins.

 

The next week at West Ham it was Oxlade, Fabinho and Henderson who started....

Some of the chopping and changing in the very early part of season was really unfortunate, Thiago was injured at start of season - Fabinho lost his arl fella and i think Brazil acted the twats as well stopping him playing one week....stuff like that of course is unfortunate and in Fabinho's case with his arl fella more important.

Then just as Elliott looked like he was settling he picked up a bad injury...

 

We went into this season hoping we would be more fortunate but it looks like it is going to even more unsettled in midfield

We now really need Keita to step up and stay fit and we'll need at least one of the "kids" Elliott, Jones and Carvalho to step up a fair bit too IMO if we aren't adding.

4-2-3-1 is a shout i have made myself before and i would not be surprised to see us move to it in a few games.

I know it is about "targets" and the "right players" but surely we must know that next summer Oxlade is finally flushed, Milner will surely be finished and of course we will be looking at Hendo being 33.

And Thiago's constant injury problems are not going to get better - he's a bonus if he is available for half the games.

So there is going to have to be significant action in the transfer market next year - and that is without thinking about what might happen with Keita - if we finally say enough is enough with him and of course we don't know how it goes with the kids and Jones...

So if as it looks we are, we are walking into an injury crisis in midfield now - then surely we can look to bring a deal forward and get one in now - even if it costs a bit more than it would next summer....It also means we are not settling in 2 or 3 new midfielders in one go next summer.

We literally have nobody Fabinho aside who is in their prime and can be relied on to be fit and available regualarly and Fabinho is not immune to the odd spell out.

It seems a touch odd to me we are in situation we are in with our midfield...a mix of ageing players, highly injury prone players and unrpoven kids.....the balance and blend does not feel right to me either.

Our 'best 3' when we can get it out regularly is very good - the reliability of our cover is not great and the drop off in quality is IMO too big as well.

For me the Henderson and Thiago are at the point in their careers where they simply can't be at full tilt every week. They can turn it on at the right time and are of course class players but on a week to week basis it will get dodgy, they need rests and their workloads need to be managed - but they have no reliable, proven back up really, just kids and injury prone players....and of course in Thiago's case he just can't stay fit himself.

The other issue is we can't unload the shite like Oxlade.

I am convinced we would have sold him this summer - just needed him to stay fit, play a few pre-season games and he'd have been sold.

Nobody is going to want to look at him now he is injured again and has had no pre-season, so we are stuck with him and he eats up a big wage.

It probably shouldn't be a problem to a club of our means, but we are run as a very tight ship and i'd wager that we won't see a midfielder come in until we see one go - and of course it looks highly likely that is not going to happen now whether that is the "right" thing or not is of course a discussion, but i feel it is very much the stance the club are taking.

It is for me the wrong stance and is likely to cost us.

We are going to need to be lucky on the injury front and we've started on that front about as badly as could.

One other point that occurs to me on this which I don’t think has already been made (apologies if that’s not the case) is that if we’re going to sign someone they have to be really fucking good right now and crucially better than what we already have.  
 

There’s no way we should be just getting in another body even if it’s someone who’s a very good “other body”. This is one of the best teams in the world and if you’re going to add to it, you should only be adding world class talent relative to the stage of development of the individual. 

It doesn’t make sense to me to add a young player when we have Harvey, Fabio and Curtis holding down three of the nine slots in the current midfield set up; Neither does it make sense to add a player in his 30s when we have Milner, Henderson and Thiago holding down another three of the nine slots who are in that age bracket. 
 

In my view that throws the spotlight onto the group where we know the real questionmarks are: Keita and Ox are players who cannot push into the first choice three when they should be smashing the door down at that age and, in Naby’s case at least, were signed at an age and fee to do exactly that.

So, if there is a player out there that the club feels extremely confident about and is in that key cusp-of-prime age bracket of 23 to 26, then we should go and get him – but only if he is good enough to supplant one of the current three. Who is that player? I’m not sure that the lad at Sporting Lisbon is definitely that. Maybe he is but who knows? If the club feel he’s the real deal, great! But if not, I’m more than happy to wait for a player they think is. 
 

The obvious caveat to the above is Bellingham in the sense that his age doesn’t match the points I’ve just made. However, he is so ridiculously and prodigiously talented that he’d be quite capable of walking into the first team right now and that’s why he’s worth breaking the bank for. And besides, I still feel we need two midfielders for the start of next season and so my two would be Bellingham plus one more. 
 

However, I remain happy to wait for the right player rather than just any player, and when the club’s judgement in these matters is so incredibly well established, I’m not going to try to second-guess that. 

Fuck all chance of Bellingham

15 hours ago, Paul said:

One other point that occurs to me on this which I don’t think has already been made (apologies if that’s not the case) is that if we’re going to sign someone they have to be really fucking good right now and crucially better than what we already have.  
 

There’s no way we should be just getting in another body even if it’s someone who’s a very good “other body”. This is one of the best teams in the world and if you’re going to add to it, you should only be adding world class talent relative to the stage of development of the individual. 

 

It doesn’t make sense to me to add a young player when we have Harvey, Fabio and Curtis holding down three of the nine slots in the current midfield set up; Neither does it make sense to add a player in his 30s when we have Milner, Henderson and Thiago holding down another three of the nine slots who are in that age bracket. 
 

In my view that throws the spotlight onto the group where we know the real questionmarks are: Keita and Ox are players who cannot push into the first choice three when they should be smashing the door down at that age and, in Naby’s case at least, were signed at an age and fee to do exactly that.

 

So, if there is a player out there that the club feels extremely confident about and is in that key cusp-of-prime age bracket of 23 to 26, then we should go and get him – but only if he is good enough to supplant one of the current three. Who is that player? I’m not sure that the lad at Sporting Lisbon is definitely that. Maybe he is but who knows? If the club feel he’s the real deal, great! But if not, I’m more than happy to wait for a player they think is. 
 

The obvious caveat to the above is Bellingham in the sense that his age doesn’t match the points I’ve just made. However, he is so ridiculously and prodigiously talented that he’d be quite capable of walking into the first team right now and that’s why he’s worth breaking the bank for. And besides, I still feel we need two midfielders for the start of next season and so my two would be Bellingham plus one more. 
 

However, I remain happy to wait for the right player rather than just any player, and when the club’s judgement in these matters is so incredibly well established, I’m not going to try to second-guess that. 

As always, a very good post.

Had a look on Transfermarkt for midfielders entering the final year of their contracts and came across a couple of names that I believe could be suitable targets for now, or January if the current injury situation in midfield worsens.

The first player is someone we've been tentatively linked to earlier this summer - Konrad Laimer (RB Leipzig). Pretty sure a couple of other forumites have mentioned him previously too.

I know that he's been heavily linked with a move to Bayern in recent times, so that would be the most obvious hurdle to overcome if we were to attempt to bring him in during the remainder of this window.

Definitely a player in the Henderson/Milner mould, full of industry and running power while being a pretty decent player too. He turned 25 in May, so he's a really good age, just hitting, or just about to hit his best years. 

Transfermarkt has him valued at ~£25m at this moment in time - Seems a reasonable value in this market if you were to go and get him now. If you wanted to push a deal through in January, then I'd suggest you be looking at ~£15m as he's likely to be heading off on a free next summer, so Leipzig may want to cash in rather than lose him for nowt.

The other player I like the look of is Carlos Soler at Valencia.

Just turned 25 at the start of the year, so again, a quality player at a good age. Transfermarkt has him valued at ~£45m.

Becoming a regular in the Spanish National squad after an excellent couple of seasons with Valencia. He could provide goals from midfield that we don't have in our squad currently.

Made 32 league appearances last season, with 11 goals and 5 assists. The previous season, he also made 32 league appearances, with 11 goals and 8 assists.

He is a Valencia lad born and bred, and is currently Valencia's vice-captain, so getting him out of his boyhood/hometown club may be tricky. I'm not sure about Valencia's current financial situation, so not sure if that's something that could be used to leverage a deal. 

Really good technically, but also not afraid to put in a shift. Has become a central midfielder in recent seasons after starting out in wide positions as a younger player, so can play higher up the pitch and is comfortable in wide areas too.

Both of these players are integral pieces for their current teams, so unless there's a transfer request or an urgent requirement for money from either club, then deals will be difficult to push through in this window, but not impossible.

I don’t think the issue is anything to do with money. Or at least not directly - we always want long term value. It’s about waiting for the “perfect” player/s to improve this team. So unless those lads are on that list, the fact that they’re in their last 12 months will probably not be a factor, I suspect. Or is that what you mean? They are on the list but not obtainable until January?

It is 100% about money. We could only afford Nunez or a midfielder this year 

5 hours ago, Paul said:

I don’t think the issue is anything to do with money. 

It’s the first issue every single time. 

8 hours ago, Daisy said:

It is 100% about money. We could only afford Nunez or a midfielder this year 

See, I don't disagree with that in principle, but if we could sign Bellingham now, they'd figure out a way to make it work financially, like they did during Covid. 

So,  who's been watching Bellingham in the Bundesliga on a regular basis?

Fabinho infuriates me; his passing is really poor and he is slow as fuck. He gets away with murder and our fans regularly turn a blind eye to it, case in point, his inept attempt at a tackle which led directly to Palace's goal on Monday.

If we had even half decent alternatives to choose from then Fabinho shouldn't be within a mile of a first team shirt atm.

We badly need a mobile number 6 with pace.

On 16/08/2022 at 07:02, Josef Svejk said:

So,  who's been watching Bellingham in the Bundesliga on a regular basis?

Defo not me. I think in total I've seen him play for about 20 minutes, when Dortmund played Rangers.

Very much in the Jadon Sancho camp for me, whereby everyone says he's boss so I'll take their word for it because I've never watched him. I still couldn't tell you what Sancho does by the way.

5 hours ago, Carvalho Diablo said:

Fabinho infuriates me; his passing is really poor and he is slow as fuck. He gets away with murder and our fans regularly turn a blind eye to it, case in point, his inept attempt at a tackle which led directly to Palace's goal on Monday.

 

If we had even half decent alternatives to choose from then Fabinho shouldn't be within a mile of a first team shirt atm.

 

We badly need a mobile number 6 with pace.

While I wouldn’t go anywhere near as strong as that, I do think Fabinho blows a bit hot and cold. He’s great at what he does which is far more complex than most people seem to notice: he shields the centre backs but he also pushes very high to the pitch to recycle possession.  

However, there have been more instances over the last year where he’s been less than dominant. I just wonder if he needs a bit of competition for his place in the biggest games. That said, it’s not even vaguely close to being a priority for me. 

The fact that Fabinho is our highest scoring midfielder despite being the one who is supposed to be furthest back is another indication that we are lacking in midfield. 

12 hours ago, Carvalho Diablo said:

Fabinho infuriates me; his passing is really poor and he is slow as fuck. He gets away with murder and our fans regularly turn a blind eye to it, case in point, his inept attempt at a tackle which led directly to Palace's goal on Monday.

 

If we had even half decent alternatives to choose from then Fabinho shouldn't be within a mile of a first team shirt atm.

 

We badly need a mobile number 6 with pace.

There's really not a lot of great lone number 6's out there, nevermind ones with pace and good passing. Casemiro, Rodri, the best ones are all also slow. Tchouameni would have been the alternative, but he will sit behind Casemiro for a while as well. He's not ready to be great there yet. There's also Rice who is very good but we all know the price tag is nuts. Ndidi maybe, but he's hurt all the time and is shite on the ball.

Fabinho hasn't been awesome in the last while, but he's close to irreplaceable. And his passing is good for that position, it's the pressing and tackling that has fallen off. The margins are very small in our system. He has to win the ball when he goes in, or he's fucked, because he has to go higher than most players that play his role. And he hasn't gotten that part right recently. But it's very difficult.