PODCAST: Manchester United 2 Liverpool 1 - The Inquest

Too much exasperation and not enough vitriol for my liking, lads. 

Used to love listening to these podcasts.

You are gradually losing credibility though - wildy claiming and all agreeing we would definately win the league last year after one game, laughing at Arsenal and now -  no criticism of the owners or squad planning thats got us into this mess. 

Few reactions to the pod/match:

1. I’m convinced the issue is linked to preseason. The complete lack of physical intensity is glaring and it’s now being seen in decision making. The players know their bodies aren’t in peak condition and they’re second guessing themselves about the ground they can cover or how tight they need to be against fast opponents. That is now in danger of spilling over into a confidence issue though which really would be bad. 
2. The point Dave made about Diaz and Mo is spot on. We just aren’t using them properly. Both have shown flashes of brilliance this season but are peripheral too often. That’s on the team rather than those two individuals. 
3. I’m now really pissed off with Núñez. He’d have made a big difference last night and could have given that busy little cunt they’ve signed at centre half a real game. To clarify my previous pod point: I wasn’t ever saying he’s not responsible or that he’s blameless; I was saying he’s made a big error but I won’t hold a grudge. I now want to insert a caveat: he really fucking needs to make amends when he gets back in the team or I will be holding grudges. Fucking tit. 
4. The injury list is now officially a crisis for me and we absolutely need to get a midfielder in, given that context. Doesn’t need to be Bellingham this summer, but we need another one off our list right now. I always felt we needed two next summer anyway, so let’s bring one deal forward even if we have to overpay. That’s a level of pragmatism the club has been happy to exercise previously so why not now? If we can fuck Keita off too, that’s a bonus, the absolute fraud. 

5. I remain convinced that the World Cup and this whole weird season is having a Covid-lite effect on the league. We have seen - and will see - mad results. So I’m nowhere near ready to make judgments about our campaign yet. It’d be laughable after three games anyway, but during this craziness all bets are off. 
6. We absolutely have to beat Bournemouth. 

Two absolutely glaring issues are the right side of defense.

1

Trent is asleep far to often at the back post of players running off him. This isn't a issue because he's pushed up and out of position but genuinely switching off and not being aware of what's around him. The lack of cover from anyone in midfield when he goes forward doesn't help. 

2

The constant changing of partners for van Dijk. He's not been close to his best but I think that's 3 partnerships in 3 games. Obviously injuries playing their part here but having 3 players for one position isn't helping. Once Konate back it needs to be him in there as often as possible. Matip might be slightly ahead but he's 31 and has 'another strange injury' that's keeping him out a month. Gomeslz just hasn't looked the same since the last knee injury. 

It's clearly a mental issue. The players have had enough smashing their bodies to pieces week after week when the owners just come along and fuck the manager over and sell off huge chunks of the squad to balance the books. 

We are absolutely fucked, I just hope Klopp doesn't end up walking. 

2 hours ago, Daisy said:

Used to love listening to these podcasts.

 

You are gradually losing credibility though - wildy claiming and all agreeing we would definately win the league last year after one game, laughing at Arsenal and now -  no criticism of the owners or squad planning thats got us into this mess. 

"Used to love listening to these podcasts. When we were winning"

1 hour ago, Lee909 said:

The constant changing of partners for van Dijk. He's not been close to his best but I think that's 3 partnerships in 3 games. Obviously injuries playing their part here but having 3 players for one position isn't helping. Once Konate back it needs to be him in there as often as possible. Matip might be slightly ahead but he's 31 and has 'another strange injury' that's keeping him out a month. Gomeslz just hasn't looked the same since the last knee injury. 

 

I don't care if he had Captain Tom and his zimmer frame next to him, nothing excuses the fucking shite we saw from him on that first goal. Not his partner's fault he dangled a leg on Mitrovic either, or just flat out refused to close Zaha down.

He's been at least partially responsible for a goal in every game he's played this season. That's on him, not the revolving door alongside him, although it would be helpful for the stability of the team if we didn't have to change it every week.

Main culprits for last night's loss:

Generally:

- Lack of aggression (and running) If this is the new norm of refereeing, we need to take advantage (like Fulham, Palace and now Utd have done). Get tighter, charge through opponents before or as they receive the ball. Seems like pretty much everything is allowed now except stopping a counter in your own half (which seems to be an automatic yellow. That yellow on Trent was an absolute joke by the way - didn't even touch Elanga).

- Lack of streetsmartnesss. See above. Every ref is falling for the theatrics. I really don't want us to go down this route, but if you can dive up in the air multiple times clutching your face trying to stall play and the referee does zilch about it we need to take advantage of it, as everyone else seems to be exploiting it to the max. Would be more helpful if we weren't chasing all the time of course

Players:

- Van Dijk - shocking defending all night, seems terrified of getting close/being done. Needs to swallow some pride and get stuck in. Absolutely abysmal on attacking corners/free-kicks as well, does nothing to get rid of his marker. I'd consider benching him when Matip or Konate comes back to make a point. Gomez was FAR better than him tonight.

- Henderson - He simply has to have the play in front of him. He's so positionally inept that they just kept having free runs at our defence all night. Not a shock to see him subbed, him or Milner should have been off at HT.

- Milner - probably even worse than Henderson, but at least he puts a tackle in. He also didn't serve them the ball on a platter on the 2nd goal.

- Milner/Hendo as a combo - you guys keep being surprised that we're not seeing Diaz in better positions with the ball. Are there anyone out there spending more time on their first and second touch than these two. It's a glacier-like movement whenever Milner receives it, and Hendo is not much better. Henderson probably has a role to play still as the one shouting and amping up the volume in certain games, but he is so flawed now (that his legs seem to have gone a bit) it's tough to watch. 

- Trent. One of my favourite players, but he's too switched off when he's (finally) back in defence. Too much responsibility on him to supply our attackers, but when we have zero creativity on the left side of midfield (Milner/Hendo), he needs to have better success rate for us to function.

The others were varying degrees of mediocre, with a bit of credit going Diaz' way for seemingly working the hardest of the lot.

Final note: Can't believe you've singled out Firmino yet again in your Podcast, he was the only one making things happen in our decent periods of play. He made one bad decision all night (the lob), and worked hard and retrieved the ball on numerous occasions, setting up Mo with a golden opportunity among other positive contributions. The balloon shot; How many strikers in the world scores with their "wrong" foot there? I'm far more critical of Salah's blast over the bar unpressured on his preferred left foot. 

I still enjoy these pods, but the bias for Henderson (yeah, he's been a great captain and lifted trophies for us, but he's been crap for nearly a year) and against Firmino (one of our greatest ever forwards) is a bit laughable tbh. 

Dave's anger, spot on. Great pod again.

The players, staff and manager should have known what was coming here but they all seemed to think the team that got battered by Brentford, would turn up instead, not one looking for redemption.

Bin Bag Ten reportedly had the united players running an extra 12k+ last Sunday as a punishment for that performance yet, they still looked fresher than us. What's going on with our conditioning?

It has to be said, Mo looks a different player without Sadio up front. And Dave is spot on about Trent. We had loads of possession, at one point the in game stat was something like 83% to united's 17% but we did fuck all with it. We look all over the place and little to no organisation.

Has Mo's bumper contract upset the unity of the squad? You'd hope not but something's going on.

As for united, Im amazed although not, that Fernandez didnt get a 2nd yellow by the time he got his first and only one of the night, never mind his actions on Mo's goal.

Varane and Martinez, both CBs going down with 'cramp' in the last 8 minutes, really? CB's run the least in a game excepting keepers yet Oliver's letting them get away with this time wasting? The 5 minutes added time was just for them, was it?

Our problems all stem from our problems in midfield.

Fix them and you fix the team and you fix the performances and the results.

The midfield is upsetting our balance and effectiveness going both ways....it is not doing enough to help us going both ways and its failures is making us less potent and more porous.

It lacks legs - it lacks creativity - it is too easy to play through and it is having a negative impact on our defence and attack.

Henderson, Milner and Elliott is simply not right - the balance is just wrong, the mix wrong, the skill set in there is just wrong - it is not suited to how we want to play and it makes us easier to play against....and is creating problems with how other players play.

Until we fix it, we'll continue to see too many performances and results like we have this season so far.

Now some of it is of course down to the availability and fitness of players - the rest is down to us bringing in the right players.

Our midfield right now is like a broken part in a car that causes other parts to not work as effectively as they should/causes other parts to then weaken and break.

It’s still the best podcast.  It goes hand in hand with listening to Klopp after a defeat.  It helps you get over it.

This game and situation has been coming though and not just this season.  Looking leggy and the points about pre season are valid but they don’t explain why we’ve been like this for a long time now.  We’ve just been getting away with it.  It’s not about effort or running or even Mane going because we were having these exact problems last year.

Theres a massive problem with how we set up and use the ball when we want to attack.  For as long as I can remember we have one man out wide.  It tends to be Robbo on the left and Salah on the right.  Trent’s too lazy/unfit to go past him  or overlap consistently and is clearly being told to either do what he wants or drift inside and it’s absolutely killing Salah.  We use to see it a lot last season and it would end up being Mane going wide with Robbo that would open up the game.  Last night Trent actually did get to byline twice and it should have led to goals but then we just revert to the same shit that isn’t working.  I was worried about Diaz when mane left as good as he is he loves drifting in.  I think from the off last night he was trying to stay wide though but then Robbo was just not on it and it’s hard to just make that connection trying to do this for the first time in a game like this,  We just don’t create good chances because we don’t stretch teams enough.  The Firmino one mentioned is not a good chance.  It’s a high ball going on to his left foot.  The fact that it was air shot shows how bad he is these days but not many players are scoring that.

The whole thing is exacerbated by just how bad and lazy Trent has been.  It was obvious to me that any game against a good side last season was going to be a problem because he’s such a weak link defensively.  I think on the pod last year you were saying this is a myth but it categorically isn’t.  He can put his foot in but defensively he’s absolutely clueless and the way he’s been indulged has hit a critical point.  It’s like he’s got a licence not bother and he’s following it up with horrific offensive decisions making as well.  The myth for me is that it’s the risk we take because he gets caught up the pitch.  I couldn’t care less if he’s got to the byline or someone makes a mistake and he’s deep in their half and they break, that’s not on him.  What is on him is the consistent lazy walking around.  When he’s in reaching distance of players and just gambles on not following them because he obviously just can’t be arsed.  He nearly cost us the palace game standing right by his man and just letting him do what he wanted at the end of the game.

You could argue both goals tonight are on him.  The first one he’s doing that lazy walk as the ball goes out wide and doesn’t close the man.  Then gets one two-d not doing anything at all.  At this point it’s classic Trent.  The balls gone past me “I’m done” mode.  Everyone is focusing on Virg because it’s so odd what he does but go back and look at Trent.  He could have come across and stopped Sancho getting that shot off but he can’t be arsed.  The half arsed jog he does towards sancho as he’s in the space sums him up.  He gets away with it because he’s kept himself out of it instead having defensive instinct and just getting back in.

The second one comes from one of the countless aimless smashed balls he tried into the middle of the pitch.  How often did we use to talk about the situations where we have to keep the ball in those situations because if we lose it we get exposed so badly.  His reaction after hitting the pass again is something nobody seems to pick up on.  He just stands there while they’re breaking free.  He literally doesn’t move because he can’t be arsed.  If you’re going to hit such a low percentage pass when you’ve got 2 or 3 options around you then you’ve got to instantly be heading back to goal because of the likelihood of whats going to happen.  He was killing us all night by giving them the ball and leaving the defence exposed.

The strange wandering around the pitch he’s started doing this season as well doesn’t seem to be being picked up by anyone either.  We’ve had patterns of play drilled into the players that have worked for years but now our centre backs are struggling to pass the ball out at times in the game because Trent is just standing up front and everyone just seems to ignore that it’s happening.  I think Gomez hit ones straight out of play at one point because Trent was nowhere to be seen.  It’s gone from being a problem against good sides to now hurting us against average and bad ones as well.

1 hour ago, lebron said:

Final note: Can't believe you've singled out Firmino yet again in your Podcast, he was the only one making things happen in our decent periods of play. He made one bad decision all night (the lob), and worked hard and retrieved the ball on numerous occasions, setting up Mo with a golden opportunity among other positive contributions. The balloon shot; How many strikers in the world scores with their "wrong" foot there? I'm far more critical of Salah's blast over the bar unpressured on his preferred left foot. 

 

I still enjoy these pods, but the bias for Henderson (yeah, he's been a great captain and lifted trophies for us, but he's been crap for nearly a year) and against Firmino (one of our greatest ever forwards) is a bit laughable tbh. 

I wish I had someone who loved me as much and was as blind to my failings as you are with Bobby.

You're literally the only one defending him at this point.

(I agree with pretty much everything else in your post)

Just finished listening, and I agree with Dave: our biggest problem was we were fucking shit.

So, first of all, thanks for listening and reliving that with us, we appreciate it.

Secondly, we appreciate this isn't what you're used to when you tune into the pods! It's was a new-ish feeling for us too. We recorded about half an hour after full time so the misery was still pretty raw.

I listened back this morning and think we did an ok job of conveying the disappointment without getting hysterical about it, but it could have been better. We welcome all the feedback, good or bad. 

Hopefully that's the most difficult one of the season out of the way.

4 hours ago, dave u said:

 

I don't care if he had Captain Tom and his zimmer frame next to him, nothing excuses the fucking shite we saw from him on that first goal. Not his partner's fault he dangled a leg on Mitrovic either, or just flat out refused to close Zaha down.

 

He's been at least partially responsible for a goal in every game he's played this season. That's on him, not the revolving door alongside him, although it would be helpful for the stability of the team if we didn't have to change it every week.

Remember when we used to say 'you could put anyone next to Virg'?

7 minutes ago, Chris said:

So, first of all, thanks for listening and reliving that with us, we appreciate it.

 

Secondly, we appreciate this isn't what you're used to when you tune into the pods! It's was a new-ish feeling for us too. We recorded about half an hour after full time so the misery was still pretty raw.

 

I listened back this morning and think we did an ok job of conveying the disappointment without getting hysterical about it, but it could have been better. We welcome all the feedback, good or bad. 

 

Hopefully that's the most difficult one of the season out of the way.

 

 

 

I genuinely thought you’d have all been more angry. It felt like you were all shell shocked. 

I was fuming so fair play for even getting one out. 

United fought and we whimpered. Unacceptable. If we had a squad I'd drop Trent just to let his ego down a bit. "I see things other footballers can't see" it seems so because there's no fucker in the box. Van Dijk needs to wake up from his fantasy about himself and remember it's hard work that got him were he is. Klopp and his team need to pull their fingers out their arse and address this not like last time were they just kept on and on repeating the same play hoping the universe will fix it for us. FSG need to invest in their business or it will fall behind like any other business that doesn't move with the competition. We won't be in some terrible debt saddled situation by spending cash the fucking club has quadrupled in value with them spending fuck all, so maybe its time they give it a boost.

7 minutes ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

United fought and we whimpered. Unacceptable. If we had a squad I'd drop Trent just to let his ego down a bit. "I see things other footballers can't see" it seems so because there's no fucker in the box. Van Dijk needs to wake up from his fantasy about himself and remember it's hard work that got him were he is. Klopp and his team need to pull their fingers out their arse and address this not like last time were they just kept on and on repeating the same play hoping the universe will fix it for us. FSG need to invest in their business or it will fall behind like any other business that doesn't move with the competition. We won't be in some terrible debt saddled situation by spending cash the fucking club has quadrupled in value with them spending fuck all, so maybe its time they give it a boost.

Never mind his ego. Would drop him on form if Neco Williams was still here, or one of the other centre halves were fit and we could shift Gomez out to RB. 

Lebron’s point about responding to the apparent change of emphasis in refereeing  is a good one. However, I’m not convinced it will last. Referees start every season one way but then quickly revert to type after the first few rounds of matches. 

There were some obvious individual criticisms to make here, although yeah, the banging on about Firmino is getting a bit tiresome. The majority of people know he's not a goal threat anymore, it doesn't have to be repeated. The fault is becoming moreso on how he's used tactically. We have to use his strengths at this point in his career and that's probably as a #10 now, not as someone who has to lead the line, although we didn't really have another option in this game. Whiffing on a left footed volley isn't really a talking point.

Were I on the pod, I would've talked about pressing, counters and the shape. When we're bad, the issue is always tactical and collective because when you have such belief in our plan, as we do, the issues are always with that plan and how to fix them, because the plan is always pretty much the same. 

At the moment, we can't stop counters, we're not pressing well and with the ball, we're bypassing the midfield like we're Pulis' Stoke. How you fix those things is anyone's guess, but it probably does start with having better midfielders.

Also, I was really annoyed with Trent after the game, and he looks lackadaisical as anything, but he has far too much responsibility in this team. He's pretty much our only real playmaker and he's getting exposed due to our shape being as bad as it is. We need another creative outlet and to protect him better defensively. His apparent lack of desire should be criticized, but not the fact that teams are targeting him. That's a tactical issue.

5 hours ago, dave u said:

 

I wish I had someone who loved me as much and was as blind to my failings as you are with Bobby.

 

You're literally the only one defending him at this point.

 

(I agree with pretty much everything else in your post)

Yeah, gone are the days of us having the most knowledgeable supporters in the world…

Kidding, sort of… I honestly don’t know how someone watches that game back and think Bobby’s performance is the/a big issue though. Do you/our supporters expect him to be omnipresent. If you want him to be stretching the field ala Nunez/Haaland, then we need to switch the way we use our wingers in the 4-3-3 that we’ve had so much success with.

PS! The only person that might love Bobby more than me is Klopp, a company I’m happy to keep. 

I agree with that last paragraph on Trent. 

As for the rest of it, it was half an hour after a performance like that against THEM so you're not going to get much of a calm, tactical deep dive. It's mainly going to be letting off steam as we're all pissed off.

Plus the fact that (other than Stu Monty) we're not coaches and there's nothing more pretentious than people pontificating about the inner workings of Klopp's pressing system and the positioning of players when we don't really know enough about it to have an informed opinion. I'll comment on what I see going wrong, but I generally don't know enough to tell you why it's going wrong (the way we used Diaz and Salah for example), and outside of the inner circle of Klopp, the coaches and players, very few people do.

As for Bobby, he was one of a number of players whose performance level was spoken about. If you think we're 'banging on' about it then that's probably because his performances have been consistently more ineffective than others so therefore it gets spoken about more. There were worse players than him last night but that doesn't mean he was any good.

I agree that we've probably said all that can be said about him now though, and I feel the same way about Naby. It's Groundhog Day really, fed up of saying the same stuff about both of them. Difference is, it upsets me ragging on Bobby because I love him and appreciate everything he's done for the club. With Keita I have zero emotional investment.

I actually thought Bobby was among our best - or least shit - players yesterday. He seemed to help in most that was good ( granted, not that much) and had little fault in the bad. 

13 minutes ago, lebron said:

Yeah, gone are the days of us having the most knowledgeable supporters in the world…

 

 

 

Kidding, sort of… I honestly don’t know how someone watches that game back and think Bobby’s performance is the/a big issue though. Do you/our supporters expect him to be omnipresent. If you want him to be stretching the field ala Nunez/Haaland, then we need to switch the way we use our wingers in the 4-3-3 that we’ve had so much success with.

 

PS! The only person that might love Bobby more than me is Klopp, a company I’m happy to keep. 

He's definitely not the big issue (he is only a back up these days and wouldn't be playing but for injury and suspension), and last night I don't even think he was a particularly big issue overall because so much else was fucking awful. Bobby did some decent stuff linking play in the middle of the park but in the big moments when there was an opportunity to do something, he was found wanting again.

Wasn't just him, but this has been going on for so long that's why he's more of a focal point or, if you want to put it another way, an easy target.

It just makes me sad seeing him as an absolute shadow of what he was. There's no spark or joy in his game anymore and it's like he knows he's lost something. 

2 minutes ago, dave u said:

I agree with that last paragraph on Trent. 

 

As for the rest of it, it was half an hour after a performance like that against THEM so you're not going to get much of a calm, tactical deep dive. It's mainly going to be letting off steam as we're all pissed off.

 

Plus the fact that (other than Stu Monty) we're not coaches and there's nothing more pretentious than people pontificating about the inner workings of Klopp's pressing system and the positioning of players when we don't really know enough about it to have an informed opinion. I'll comment on what I see going wrong, but I generally don't know enough to tell you why it's going wrong (the way we used Diaz and Salah for example), and outside of the inner circle of Klopp, the coaches and players, very few people do.

 

As for Bobby, he was one of a number of players whose performance level was spoken about. If you think we're 'banging on' about it then that's probably because his performances have been consistently more ineffective than others so therefore it gets spoken about more. There were worse players than him last night but that doesn't mean he was any good.

 

I agree that we've probably said all that can be said about him now though, and I feel the same way about Naby. It's Groundhog Day really, fed up of saying the same stuff about both of them. Difference is, it upsets me ragging on Bobby because I love him and appreciate everything he's done for the club. With Keita I have zero emotional investment.

I get that, I wasn't offering up solutions either, as I said I don't know them. But it's something you have to mention. Individual performances are half the game, how they're setup by the coach and the tactics are the other half.