Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Jockey]

If you lived where I lived in Liverpool as a kid and saw the conditions we excepted as the norm combined with the hours and working conditions my father had to put up with you would consider yourself fucking blessed now.

My kids do not know what it is like to sleep under coats and scrape ice of the inside of the bedroom windows. Having to skip meals because your old fella got no overtime this week. A chippy tea was a fucking once in a blue moon treat. Walking 3 miles to school because you had no bus fare. Hand me down clothes from cousins etc etc without sounding like monty python.

Now it’s cruelty it there is no fucking WiFi.

We were not poor. There were loads worse off than us but there is now a sense of entitlement that never existed before. People want it handed to them. Now. Fuck them.

 

And people are poor now! All you seem to be saying is 'you are doing well - and therefore your kids have not grown up as poor as you'? Your kids may not know what it is like to grow up under ice - but I can guarantee you that there are kids in Walton who do - still, to this day! 

 

I'm not justifying my youth mate - I grew up in Walton in the 80s with 80% unemployment for the youth, so i'll not be lectured about that. I got out, got myself a free University education - and have done relatively well for myself. 

[skend04]

So the deal offered by the EU is the one where we lose an average 8-10% of GDP. Just as a comparison, the last 10 years of austerity came on the back of 2% GDP contraction after the global financial crash.

 

A bit of food for thought there.

[Numero Veinticinco]

So the deal offered by the EU is the one where we lose an average 8-10% of GDP. Just as a comparison, the last 10 years of austerity came on the back of 2% GDP contraction after the global financial crash.

 

A bit of food for thought there.

Least we won’t have so many people talking in foreign accents though.

[Jockey]

And blue passports!

[Jockey]

However it would be remiss to point out that not everyone thinks GDP is the best measure.

[skend04]

Least we won’t have so many people talking in foreign accents though.

I don't know. The Red Cross will need to send someone in to the country to deal with the fall out.

[magicrat]

However it would be remiss to point out that not everyone thinks GDP is the best measure.

 

A turd still stinks

[Numero Veinticinco]

However it would be remiss to point out that not everyone thinks GDP is the best measure.

It’s a pretty decent measure for a capitalist economy and it’s ability to provide a prosperous nation and decent living standards for its inhabitants, to be fair.

[Jockey]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/sep/13/economics-economic-growth-and-recession-global-economy

 

Just putting this out there!

 

For myself. I am willing to accept a lower GDP for greater equality.

[SasaS]

It’s a pretty decent measure for a capitalist economy and it’s ability to provide a prosperous nation and decent living standards for its inhabitants, to be fair.

 

Isn't GDP a measure of any, not just capitalist economy?

[Numero Veinticinco]

Isn't GDP a measure of any, not just capitalist economy?

It is a measure, but when talking about GDP growth it’s paeticularly important as an indicator for a capitalist economy. Obviously there are other factors, but in a planned economy vs a market economy growth of GDP isn’t the only factor when considering those other things.

[SasaS]

It is a measure, but when talking about GDP growth it’s paeticularly important as an indicator for a capitalist economy. Obviously there are other factors, but in a planned economy vs a market economy growth of GDP isn’t the only factor when considering those other things.

 

 

I don't follow... GDP is GDP, regardless of the nature of the economy, so it's growth. When analyzing GDP growth, it is important to look what it is based on i.e. does it look sustainable or not, is it based on inflation fuelled consumption, capital investments based on foreign debt etc, but it's mostly the same for all economies.

[Numero Veinticinco]

I don't follow... GDP is GDP, regardless of the nature of the economy, so it's growth. When analyzing GDP growth, it is important to look what it is based on i.e. does it look sustainable or not, is it based on inflation fuelled consumption, capital investments based on foreign debt etc, but it's mostly the same for all economies.

You're not following what I'm saying. I'm talking about how suitable it is to use as an indicator. Planned economies don't rely on growth in the same way as a capitalistic market economy. So using growth or just size of GDP as an indicator of these things isn't always directly comparative.

[SasaS]

You're not following what I'm saying. I'm talking about how suitable it is to use as an indicator. Planned economies don't rely on growth in the same way as a capitalistic market economy. So using growth or just size of GDP as an indicator of these things isn't always directly comparative.

 

You mean to say, if I understand it correctly, that GDP growth is more organic in market economy and can be planned, directed or manipulated by the government in the planned economy, so it is therefore more indicative of how the economy is doing in market economies?

[magicrat]

The Government is blocking publication of the Electoral Commission findings into funding of the Northern Ireland leave campaign 

 

Zero publicity due to the convenient Russian Spy saga

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/adam-ramsay/electoral-commission-demand-right-to-publish-northern-irish-brexit-campaign

[Plev]

EU now saying no talks until UK comes up with Irish Border solution. I suspect they’re in for a long wait, but hopefully it’ll bring things to a head one way or another.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

EU now saying no talks until UK comes up with Irish Border solution. I suspect they’re in for a long wait, but hopefully it’ll bring things to a head one way or another.

https://evolvepolitics.com/why-the-eus-ultimatum-on-the-irish-border-almost-certainly-signals-the-end-for-theresa-mays-truly-dreadful-premiership-opinion/

 

Unless those wonderbrains Davis, Johnson, Fox or some other cunt comes up with a "fifth way" there are only four Brexit options for the Irish border question.

 

1.  No customs union or regulatory alignment would mean the introduction of a hard border, with necessary checks and probable tariffs.  This (as I understand it) would violate the Good Friday Agreement and greatly increase the risk of a return to violence.

 

2.  Free movement of goods and people across the Irish border, but a "border in the Irish Sea".  This would compromise the integrity of the UK and, again, would increase the risk of a return to violence in Northern Ireland.

 

3.  A "soft Brexit" with some sort of customs union, regulatory alignment and a degree of freedom of movement.

 

4.  A "no-deal Brexit".  This would look much like Option 1, but everyone would have a lot less money.

 

So, three of these options present an increased risk of bloodshed.  That should really make it a no-brainer which one the Prime Minister should go for.  However, if she did that, she would upset the Europhobic right wing of her party and might even lose her job,  And that just won't do, oh deary me, no.  Much better to risk people being killed.

[Neil G]

Number 4 it is then.

[Anny Road]

Not a political point but who would install and police the border?

If it is demanded by the EU can the UK not just ignore it and let them get on with it.

Obviously this is far from realistic but if this is the case why would republican anger be turned on the UK government? Nothing is ever simple in this problem but if the Irish don’t want it. The UK don’t want it, the Nationalists don’t want it, th Republicans don’t want it it seems unlikely who will be the target of anger other than the EU.

[Plev]

Not a political point but who would install and police the border?

If it is demanded by the EU can the UK not just ignore it and let them get on with it.

Obviously this is far from realistic but if this is the case why would republican anger be turned on the UK government? Nothing is ever simple in this problem but if the Irish don’t want it. The UK don’t want it, the Nationalists don’t want it, th Republicans don’t want it it seems unlikely who will be the target of anger other than the EU.

I think I read somewhere that WTO rules demand it, no matter if anyone wants it or not.

[skend04]

Not a political point but who would install and police the border?

If it is demanded by the EU can the UK not just ignore it and let them get on with it.

Obviously this is far from realistic but if this is the case why would republican anger be turned on the UK government? Nothing is ever simple in this problem but if the Irish don’t want it. The UK don’t want it, the Nationalists don’t want it, th Republicans don’t want it it seems unlikely who will be the target of anger other than the EU.

Stop your mental gymnastics and get controlling the borders like the leave voters were promised. Just accept your vote has opened up the possibility of a return of violence.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36148299

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/833060/Immigration-full-control-Britain-British-borders-survey-Ipsos-Mori-Brexit

 

I think I read somewhere that WTO rules demand it, no matter if anyone wants it or not.

Yeah that too.

[Anny Road]

But who polices it?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Not a political point but who would install and police the border?

If it is demanded by the EU can the UK not just ignore it and let them get on with it.

Obviously this is far from realistic but if this is the case why would republican anger be turned on the UK government? Nothing is ever simple in this problem but if the Irish don’t want it. The UK don’t want it, the Nationalists don’t want it, th Republicans don’t want it it seems unlikely who will be the target of anger other than the EU.

Either the UK implement the border or the Tories accept a customs union and free movement.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

But who polices it?

The pricks who voted for it.

[Anny Road]

Sensible points of view as usual.