Dispatches last night

[Fink]

Forgot to watch it. Anyone see it and care to give us a low down on the details?

It was about bank call centre data theft.

[navbasi]

Yeah I saw it... Good programme showing how easy your data was being traded from call centres mainly from India and some in the UK.

They set up a sting operation where by a few people went from over here and wanted to know if they could buy details... the first bloke they met said that he could get them 100,000 details.... credit card numbers, addresses, dob and even the ccv number on the back. I think he was charging £5 for each detail. Not bad considering each card you could scam for at least £2k.

They took some sample data away from him and checked it out with the autorities here and it was all legit.

The second bloke they met was the same... he could offer as many details as required. He even brought his lap top with him and played a recorded conversation between someone here and a call centre operator in India and how they got the information out of people... basically the recording showed that the data supplied would be genuine.

The big issue was that these guys that were trading in data didn't work in the call centres and had nothing to do with them, they just went from one centre to another getting data from call centre operators. They didn't say how much the call centre operators were getting for stealing the data.

The way they took data from the call centres was simply transfering files on to a memory stick. There was no security in place that rang any bells if data was being saved or transfered.

[Fink]

Nice one mate cheers. Did they mention any banks specifically?

[navbasi]

They were all affected... Barclays, NatWest, Abbey CitiBank.

[navbasi]

The examples they showed of data theft was from people that had recently brought a mobile phone via a call centre in India....

[M_B]

So were the call agents writing the information to files and then loading them onto memory sticks ?

To be fair to the companies involved there is very little you can do to prevent this kind of fraud and it can happen in any call centre irrespective of location.

Yes, you can prevent people using memory sticks etc but at the very least an agent can just memorise details, write details on paper or use a dictaphone etc to record the data.

[navbasi]

Originally Posted by M_B So were the call agents writing the information to files and then loading them onto memory sticks ? To be fair to the companies involved there is very little you can do to prevent this kind of fraud and it can happen in any call centre irrespective of location. Yes, you can prevent people using memory sticks etc but at the very least an agent can just memorise details, write details on paper or use a dictaphone etc to record the data.

The agents would be typing in details onto a standard form and then those details would be transferred to the memory stick during the day or at the end of the day times that by 10,000 agents across India and you have a lot of data that needs to be sold....

I think it's pretty easy to prevent. There is no need for them to transfer any data anywhere, a simple programme which records the actions of your computer which is monitored, if it shows up that an agent has been transferring data, you know something is up. Simple and easy.

The issue is how they reduce crime as there is never going to be a way to completely eradicate it.

There is only so much data a person can memorise or write down... compare that to the amount of data a person can get on a 2GB memory stick.

[Fink]

Exactamondo.....

[M_B]

Originally Posted by navbasi The agents would be typing in details onto a standard form and then those details would be transferred to the memory stick during the day or at the end of the day times that by 10,000 agents across India and you have a lot of data that needs to be sold.... I think it's pretty easy to prevent. There is no need for them to transfer any data anywhere, a simple programme which records the actions of your computer which is monitored, if it shows up that an agent has been transferring data, you know something is up. Simple and easy. The issue is how they reduce crime as there is never going to be a way to completely eradicate it. There is only so much data a person can memorise or write down... compare that to the amount of data a person can get on a 2GB memory stick.

So they fill in a form on their computer and this form is saved locally ?
(i.e. On their computer ?). That is very dangerous and I suspect is a breach of the data protection act, assuming ofcourse it applies to call centres abroad.

Usually (making computer systems for Call Agents is my job) the agent's fill in a form using their PC, but the data is saved remotely (i.e. Thin client or at least a thick client saving data elsewhere) and as such they have no ability to copy anything from their PC unless they write it down or memorize it.

[JER]

Originally Posted by M_B So were the call agents writing the information to files and then loading them onto memory sticks ? To be fair to the companies involved there is very little you can do to prevent this kind of fraud and it can happen in any call centre irrespective of location. Yes, you can prevent people using memory sticks etc but at the very least an agent can just memorise details, write details on paper or use a dictaphone etc to record the data.

Curruption is rife in India - it is far more likely to happen there than the UK.

[M_B]

Originally Posted by JER Curruption is rife in India - it is far more likely to happen there than the UK.

Not really. Call centre agents in Britain are typically temps on rubbish money doing a rubbish job.

Besides Nat West was apparently implicated and as far as I am aware their call centres are in England and Scotland.

[cochcaer]

Originally Posted by M_B Not really. Call centre agents in Britain are typically temps on rubbish money doing a rubbish job.

I'd be more prepared to break the law if I was in India doing work for a UK bank than I would if I was in a Swansea call centre. The program had a whiff of it was something the banks (tho it wasc mainly phone contract users they targetted) wanted swept under the carpet. (probably to maintain a facade that tight security existed)

[M_B]

Originally Posted by cochcaer I'd be more prepared to break the law if I was in India doing work for a UK bank than I would if I was in a Swansea call centre.

Why ?

Originally Posted by cochcaer The program had a whiff of it was something the banks (tho it wasc mainly phone contract users they targetted) wanted swept under the carpet. (probably to maintain a facade that tight security existed)

Well I've worked on quite a few call centres systems in the uk so far and I would have to say the banks are probably the most secure I've seen and do take it very seriously.

[cochcaer]

Originally Posted by M_B Why ?

Just the impression I got that India see's this as a golden-egg laying goose and don't want to admit fraud takes place. Looking round the IT sites it's fairly common (Dispatches showed how fraudsters quickly move from call centre to call centre to avoid trace) and workers can get £4 per user details.

[M_B]

Originally Posted by cochcaer Just the impression I got that India see's this as a golden-egg laying goose and don't want to admit fraud takes place. Looking round the IT sites it's fairly common (Dispatches showed how fraudsters quickly move from call centre to call centre to avoid trace) and workers can get £4 per user details.

Yes I don't disagree that fraud is committed in India. I'm am just surprised people think British call centres are safer because in both countries people are doing a shite job for pretty crappy money.

Every company I have contracted on assumes the same level of potential fraud and location is not an issue. The level being that if fraud can be committed then it will be.

[navbasi]

Originally Posted by cochcaer Just the impression I got that India see's this as a golden-egg laying goose and don't want to admit fraud takes place. Looking round the IT sites it's fairly common (Dispatches showed how fraudsters quickly move from call centre to call centre to avoid trace) and workers can get £4 per user details.

It's a tough one.... yeah they can earn £4 which is about 320 rupees (I think the average wage in India is about 3000 rupees a month) but if they lose their job then they are fucked.

I know recently Indian call centre companies have introduced Loyalty awards, so the longer you are with them the more you earn etc etc.... before, agents would jump from one ship to another for a basic rise of £5 per month....

The UK companies that have sent thier call centres to India are the ones that are responsible at the end of the day. If my detaisl get stolen from i.e. Barclays, I couldn't give a shit where they were stolen from, I'd just want the issue sorted and my money returned....

To me, the savings they were going to make by transerfing their operations to India or anywhere as it goes might have clouded their judgement on security.... they were probably just too excited about the bonuses they would receive by making the company an extra £XXXm.

[navbasi]

Originally Posted by M_B Yes I don't disagree that fraud is committed in India. I'm am just surprised people think British call centres are safer because in both countries people are doing a shite job for pretty crappy money. Every company I have contracted on assumes the same level of potential fraud and location is not an issue. The level being that if fraud can be committed then it will be.

It's easier to pay someone off at the local police station in India then it is here, so obviously the risks are a lot higher in the UK. For data fraud you know you are going to get banged up in the UK.... In India, for a few thousand rupees you could probably walk away scott free.

[Spionkop69]

Originally Posted by M_B Not really. Call centre agents in Britain are typically temps on rubbish money doing a rubbish job. Besides Nat West was apparently implicated and as far as I am aware their call centres are in England and Scotland.

Its apparently a policy at some of the credit card call centres that anyone caught with a mobile phone at their desk is sacked immediately. This is because people are storing numbers in their phones and passing them outside of the call centre.

Organised criminal gangs are also trying to infiltrate these places obtain legit data so they can clone identities. This is the fastest growing form of fraud because its so easy to do, and the chances of getting caught are slim with the rewards being huge - better than robbing banks and less prison sentences than dealing drugs. Expect to see the Government start to get tough on this soon - too late as ever!

I'm a fraud prevention manager in the Finance industry so this is my bread and butter.

Its scary how easy it is to commit identity and other forms of credit fraud!