Holland Vs Italy

[Owen]

Originally Posted by Brownie

I'm not even discussing systems Owen, i'm talking about players. At the end of the day, football is mainly about getting eleven good players together. Kuyt is a good player but we could get better, it's as simple as that.

You can't separate one from the other and still have a grown-up discussion about why we didn't win the league and Man Utd did.

Did you read that article someone put up the other day about Saachi? With his Milan side of the last 80's he took five well organised defenders and let ten of the best players in the world at the time try to score and they couldn't.

It's about the right player for the system, and the system that best suits the players. It's about tactics and a game plan, and how best to use your own players to overcome the opposition players. To say football's just about getting elevn good players together is horribly, horribly over-simplistic. Sure, you need the 'spark' from players, and that can make all the difference in tight games, but the vast majority of the time it's not about the players' skill levels, rather their ability to play to a system and to the game plan.

[Brownie]

Originally Posted by Owen

You can't separate one from the other and still have a grown-up discussion about why we didn't win the league and Man Utd did.

Did you read that article someone put up the other day about Saachi? With his Milan side of the last 80's he took five well organised defenders and let ten of the best players in the world at the time try to score and they couldn't.

It's about the right player for the system, and the system that best suits the players. It's about tactics and a game plan, and how best to use your own players to overcome the opposition players. To say football's just about getting elevn good players together is horribly, horribly over-simplistic. Sure, you need the 'spark' from players, and that can make all the difference in tight games, but the vast majority of the time it's not about the players' skill levels, rather their ability to play to a system and to the game plan.

I'm not being funny Owen, but I do understand football and i've played to a decent standard myself.

I realise that it's not just about eleven 'Glacticos' being on the pitch at the same time. Different players compliment each other in different ways and as we've seen with the formation change, different shapes can suit different sets of players.

I don't see what that has to do with me comparing saying that we need to have a player on the right of our front three, who is more like Ronaldo than Kuyt, which is the point I made. You can dress it all up about systems, shapes etc all you like but i'm talking about ONE player in a system which is already set.

[Brownie]

Originally Posted by wiiksie

How do people decide who is M.O.M in matches? How do we vote for our player of the season? You're really over-complicating things there Cardie, is player X better than player Y. Its simple.

Unfortunately people tend to do that when they don't like the answer.

[Owen]

Originally Posted by Brownie

I'm not being funny Owen, but I do understand football and i've played to a decent standard myself.

I realise that it's not just about eleven 'Glacticos' being on the pitch at the same time. Different players compliment each other in different ways and as we've seen with the formation change, different shapes can suit different sets of players.

I don't see what that has to do with me comparing saying that we need to have a player on the right of our front three, who is more like Ronaldo than Kuyt, which is the point I made. You can dress it all up about systems, shapes etc all you like but i'm talking about ONE player in a system which is already set.

But we don't necessarily need that. I'm not trying to come across as patronising, but when I make a simple point you seem to miss it.

For me, getting someone for the left is more important than someone for the right. Getting fullbacks are more important than getting someone for the right. We don't play the same way as Man Utd. Plonking Ronaldo in the team and telling him to stay on the right, provide width, and get into the box when the ball's on the left would see him look a lot less effective.

But fine, I'll leave it at that, as once again, we've obviously got major communication problems.

Edit: Apart from to say the above post is patronising as fuck.

[Brownie]

Originally Posted by Owen

But we don't necessarily need that. I'm not trying to come across as patronising, but when I make a simple point you seem to miss it.

For me, getting someone for the left is more important than someone for the right. Getting fullbacks are more important than getting someone for the right. We don't play the same way as Man Utd. Plonking Ronaldo in the team and telling him to stay on the right, provide width, and get into the box when the ball's on the left would see him look a lot less effective.

But fine, I'll leave it at that, as once again, we've obviously got major communication problems.

Edit: Apart from to say the above post is patronising as fuck.

I didn't want you to feel left out.

[Cardie]

Originally Posted by wiiksie

How do people decide who is M.O.M in matches? How do we vote for our player of the season? You're really over-complicating things there Cardie, is player X better than player Y. Its simple.

Ronaldo is clearly the better player, that's not the argument.

And MOTM/Player of the season are just popularity contests where mini-rash's vote for the shiniest player irrespective of contribution (how many times has Gerrard been given MOTM when people have thought it should have been one of the less glamourous players) or how often does a defender get player of the season, tournament, year etc.

What you can't do is make direct comparisons between players who are asked to perform different roles in different systems.

[Brownie]

Originally Posted by Cardie

Ronaldo is clearly the better player, that's not the argument.

And MOTM/Player of the season are just popularity contests where mini-rash's vote for the shiniest player irrespective of contribution (how many times has Gerrard been given MOTM when people have thought it should have been one of the less glamourous players) or how often does a defender get player of the season, tournament, year etc.

What you can't do is make direct comparisons between players who are asked to perform different roles in different systems.

So because we play 4-2-3-1 we can ONLY buy players who play in that role? We can't look at top class attacking players who play slightly different roles, and think 'he'd be class in our system because he's got so much ability'?

You're talking shite.

[Cardie]

Originally Posted by Brownie

So because we play 4-2-3-1 we can ONLY buy players who play in that role? We can't look at top class attacking players who play slightly different roles, and think 'he'd be class in our system because he's got so much ability'?

You're talking shite.

Have I said any of that?

[Brownie]

Originally Posted by Cardie

Have I said any of that?

You may as well have done. You seem to think i'm comparing Kuyt to Ronaldo as players, when i'm not - i'm comparing what a player such as Ronaldo could do in Kuyt's position.

[Cardie]

Originally Posted by Brownie

You may as well have done. You seem to think i'm comparing Kuyt to Ronaldo as players, when i'm not - i'm comparing what a player such as Ronaldo could do in Kuyt's position.

He'd be less productive than he was last season is my guess (unless we changed the system).

[MLB]

I like Kuyt a lot but he's probably our weakest link where quality is concerned.

[Brownie]

Originally Posted by Cardie

He'd be less productive than he was last season is my guess (unless we changed the system).

Maybe so, but more productive than Kuyt IMO, which is the point. Progression in terms of quality. Ronaldo's just an example anyway, obviously it's not realistic to talk about in terms of our team.

[stringvest]

Originally Posted by Cardie

Glad to see you're learning.

In next weeks installment why you can't expect Buffon to score as many goals as Luca Toni.

It's easier to establish sufficient similarities to compare a goalscorer and a goalkeeper than it is to find differentiators between you and a complete arsehole Cardie.

I can compare Torres with Rufus Brevitt. I'm confident in stating that Torres is a better footballer than Brevitt. I could use my skill and judgement to compare Kuyt and Ronaldo as footballers. If you struggle with that, then your opinions are worth less than I thought.

[Cardie]

Did you type that while stamping your feet and grinding your teeth?

[stringvest]

Nope, i was laughing. But I retract the second paragraph entirely. I really should read the whole thread.