Where did it all go wrong?

[Falla]

Roy Evans is a great man and Liverpool legend, and did a good job and gave the club its pride back after the nightmare years of the Souness reign.

No point playing the blame game though. People forget just what impact Hillsborough had on the club. It ripped the heart and soul out of us, which in many ways we're still recovering from, starting with Roy and then Ged. A weaker club would have gone under.

We're not doing too bad though are we?

Istanbul was the greatest night of my footballing life, and I'll cherish that as much as any of the league titles we won in our heyday.

[Hermes]

Sky, Champions League and commercialisation. The influx of big money and our perennial failure to cash in on it. Smith, Robinson, Moores and Parry have a lot to answer for on that issue.

[jamespp]

There was an article in FourFourTwo about the 2 fa cup semis on 8th April 1990, Liverpool v Palace & United v Oldham, United were mid table and shite, we would probably of beaten them in the final but we lost to Palace who we had beat 9-0 at anfield , United drew with Oldham 3-3, an won the replay then beat Palace after a replay in the final,

Ferguson would of been sacked if he hadnt of won the FA Cup, the FA Cup was more important then than it is now, United finished 13th! in 1990, winning the cup got them into Europe and they won the Cup Winners Cup and went on from there

[Nunavut Patrick]

Heysel then Hillsborough.

[isr]

Man, this is a depressing thread.

I'd echo most of the sentiments here. In hindsight, it was Hillsborough. Kenny was never the same after that, and the decline really manifested itself in Kenny's last year. Sure, we played some wonderful stuff at times (winning streak at the begining of the season, 4-4 FA Cup draw with Everton), but for the first time in decades, we had stopped following our planning for the future policy.

We always used to build up our reserve team, with a view to replenishing the 1st team every few years. By the end of King Kenny's reign, we seemed to be more into buying temporary fixes to plug directly into the first team. In some cases, they worked (eg: Rosenthal), but even those successes were temporary (he quickly showed up as a one season wonder). And we ended up with a team with an aging Molby, Speedy, etc.

Molby is the classic symptom. Great player. But, with Liverpool functioning on all cylinders (scouting, reserves, etc), we would already have had his replacement lined up by 1990.

I still remember Hanson describing our last title winning side as the poorest (champion) side he had played in.

Its easy to lay it all on Souey's door, but the truth is, the decline was already in place beforehand. We just didn't realise it at the time. It was obvious to Souey that big changes were needed. Unfortunately, in his unseemly haste, he ended up throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Ultimately, I was very dissappointed with Evans. Its not possible to get a better football education, over such a long period, as he had. In hindsight (that word again), you could argue that perhaps our rot started when Evans became the senior supporting figure in the boot room. The lack of ruthlessness he showed as a manager was probably a weakness back then. Kenny could have done with some straight talking post Hillsborough.

Eventually, all good things come to an end.....

[isr]

Another thing not to be underestimated is the lack of European football. Even when we were sweeping all before us domestically, we still had European competition to guage our true worth, and show what needed improving.

There's no question that the English league had deteriorated by the early 90s (Leeds Utd under Wilko, as champions? Give me a fucking break). We still look back fondly on the Beardsley-Barnes wonder years. I wonder, perhaps that blinded us at the time. Sure, we were head and shoulders above our domestic rivals, but the occasional ass-kicking in Europe would have kept our noses to the grindstone - and would have ensured that we wouldn't ignore the constant need to rebuild.

So yeah - Heysel and Hillsborough.

[Alan Sex]

I've also had a nagging doubt for a long time about Kenny's part in the decline. He inherited a great side, and I'm sure that the football side of his managing was fine. I'm just not sure he was a great buyer/seller of players, as far as building and maintaining a srong contender goes. I think his subsequent forays into management maybe support that theory.

None of that takes away from the legendary status of the man, of course.

[peekay]

Originally Posted by isr

Ultimately, I was very dissappointed with Evans. Its not possible to get a better football education, over such a long period, as he had. In hindsight (that word again), you could argue that perhaps our rot started when Evans became the senior supporting figure in the boot room. The lack of ruthlessness he showed as a manager was probably a weakness back then. Kenny could have done with some straight talking post Hillsborough.

Eventually, all good things come to an end.....

It is one thing which never ceases to amaze. How can a person who worked under two of the greatest managers in football have no clue about managing and controlling egos and installing discipline.

[Captain]

I think Hillsborough played the biggest part in our decline. That and the fact that Souness was appointed to succeed Kenny. Souness didn't have what it takes to manage Liverpool.

Fortunately we now have the right manager in place after a long wait. Too bad the rest of the club is in shambles. God how I wish G&H would sell and leave.

[joey54]

kept on with the "Boot Room" culture for too long.....when Kenny went that should have been the signal for a complete change, but the manner of Kenny going was handled badly and he should have been persuaded to stay until a more able replacemant could`ve been found, because we still had a decent squad and some of the top coaches at the time would`ve jumped at the chance, but crucially we looked within the club and the rest is history....Also we should`ve moved to a bigger ground years ago. we`ve been getting by on 44,000 for far too long now

[JER]

Originally Posted by peekay

It is one thing which never ceases to amaze. How can a person who worked under two of the greatest managers in football have no clue about managing and controlling egos and installing discipline.

Evans was a great reserve team manager, and should have stayed in that role - the player's mentalities had changed from the 70s - can you imagine what Paisley would have said if Ray Clemence had turned up late after modelling for Armani (there is a very disturbing image in there somewhere)

To be a boss, you can't be the players mate - simple as. Ged stayed too long, but if it wasn't for him we would really be in the shit now.

[Philbert]

Originally Posted by Alan Sex

I've also had a nagging doubt for a long time about Kenny's part in the decline. He inherited a great side, and I'm sure that the football side of his managing was fine. I'm just not sure he was a great buyer/seller of players, as far as building and maintaining a srong contender goes. I think his subsequent forays into management maybe support that theory.

None of that takes away from the legendary status of the man, of course.

I agree with you, and will point to one single game where it all started to decline. Can't remember the season exactly, but it was soon after the brilliant Barnes/Beardsley/Aldridge season. We started the next season (or the one after that) winning 7 games on the trot (I think) and then Kenny picked a team to 'do a job' when we played Arsenal away. It wasn't the first time that Kenny forgot about picking the best eleven and then just telling them to snot the opposition, but on this occasion it was packed with defenders playing in midfield. Result.......we lost 3-1 or 3-0 and it all went downhill from there on in. This also coincided with an upturn in Arsenal's fortunes.

Does anybody else remember this game and agree??

[jp carroll]

Yeah i remember that game well. season 90/91. The match was live on 'The Match' on ITV. Think merson scrambled one over the line, smith might also have got one. We wore that gray candy kit with the white running through it. Awful day 3-0

[FortressAnfield]

Originally Posted by Philbert

It wasn't the first time that Kenny forgot about picking the best eleven and then just telling them to snot the opposition, but on this occasion it was packed with defenders playing in midfield. ......
...
Does anybody else remember this game and agree??

Don't know about that game, but it reminds me of someone else...... But I think he's started to learn.

[El Rojo]

Originally Posted by Liam

Evans wasnt backed on certain deals he had lined up. Desailly and Sheringham are two that come to mind.

Wasn't it decided Sheringham was too old to buy in 1996?

I also remember being absolutely convinced around 1995 that David Batty would be be the ideal signing to complete a title winning side.

[FortressAnfield]

It is depressing (one of the Mancs in the office came in gloating on Monday), but I think most of the posts here are right. In other words, there are a load of reasons. Heysel kept us out of Europe for a year longer than the rest, and we (all English clubs, but we had a longer plan) struggled to get the best players. I think Hillsborough took far more out of Kenny than we'll ever know (maybe it changed him like Ged's heart problems seemed to change him: compare his pre-89 buys with the post-89 buys. Souness's autobiography makes the point that Kenny played with a lot of his players, and found it difficult to replace. Souness got rid of players far too quickly. I think a combination of circumstances hit us just as the Premier League (and new format Eurpean Cup - the CL) started, and by the time we were stabilising the Mancs had hoovered up so much talent and dosh that we were always playing catch-up. A Wenger could have sorted us out; Roy Evans couldn't.

[CaramaC]

For me the first signs of chinks in our armour on the field was the FA Cup semi against Palace at Villa Park in 1990. But looking at the whole picture l dont think it was possible to keep that whole level of consistency that ran right throughout the club that Shanks and Paisley built up.
l know it went on for a fair few years after that and we had some decent sides but the consistency was gone, as in how the club was run. And then of course there was Heysel, Hillsborough, and all the money that came into the game.

[aws]

It was the arrival of the Premiership and big money at a time when we are at a very low ebb following Hillsborough.

[Carra_is_legend]

Taking things for granted. Thats what happened to us. Having won so much in 20 years prior to 1990, everyone associated with the club thought more trophies will just come regardless of who the manager is and who the players are. They thought it doesn't matter if players get drunk and if there is no discipline in the club.

Moores probably thought that he had one of the easiest jobs in the world when he took over as chairman of LFC. It took him 7 fucking years to realise we are crap and our rivals are getting better both on and off the pitch. And then he appointed fucking Parry in 1998.

[Philbert]

It's quite encouraging to read so many replies which suggest that we are the architects of our own decline, rather than deflecting the blame on to others or to cite some non-existent conspiracy for our demise. This is what separates us from the terminally delusional fantasists over the park. Unless and until we understand what's required to overtake Man U (rather than bleat on about how lucky they are) we're doomed to repeat the failures of our blue bretheren.

Delapsus Resurgam!

[Trucker Paddy]

Kennys inability to buy defenders of any quality was a big factor, when hansen retired and gillespie left we were fucked, Hysen an ablett playing centre half was not a great idea. Apparentley we had an offer for gary pallister accepted before he went to the scum and then we pulled out!!! That and moores taking over was the main factors IMO

[Falla]

Kenny was an ill man after living through and then carrying the burden of a disaster that would have crippled most clubs. He's not to blame, no one is. Although I still went the match and craved success, football was insignificant to me post Hillsborough and my heart just wasn't in it.

Our reign had to come to an end anyway, like I'm sure Man Utds eventually will, at least on the pitch, just the way it is. Football is cyclical, and we should be looking to the future and a new era instead of constantly retreating into our past.