Is football really so complicated these days?

[Paul]

Reading the other thread about Rafa's progress (or otherwise) over the last four years, it struck me how taken in we've become about the notion that football is a science. Now, I'm not dimissing tactics or fitness or even rotation out of hand, but am I alone in thinking that the simple game has been over-complicated to the point of confusion? I mean, isn't winning trophies fundamentally about getting the very best players you possibly can and then letting them go out and do their stuff?

A manager's role is clearly very important and the best managers maximise the impact that their players make. However, isn't it all a bit redundant if the players aren't good enough or if what he does actually impedes what they do, rather than helps them? I just think we're all far too ready to buy into the micro-managing philosophy of Rafa and too many people then use the most obscure point to defend what is pretty indefensible.

Obviously the above could be taken as a fundamental criticism of the manager that equates to me wanting him replaced. However, surely the fact that we have improved dramatically in the league since Rafa started to simplify his selections and play more of the best players more often adds further evidence to my point?

In short, I just want him to sign a couple of top quality players who will fit into the system he's been using so well and stick with it - and them - for most of next season. If he does that, I really think we will challenge for the title. If he doesn't, I think he'll be out of a job.

[Lapskaus]

I think manager has become more important because there is less and less difference between teams these days. All the top 4 have quality and they are all trained more or less the same way. Thus they are almost equal. The difference though is in the small details. Those small details can be one top player (ronaldo) or one top manager(rafa) or one corrupted referee(Bennett)
It's not like before whenone team had mnuch better players, it's in the details now

[Rashid]

Excellent post. The levels gone to defend him is astonishin. It's not rocket science! Fergie is hardly a technician...

[Lapskaus]

Fergiei is not a technician, he just has the best players. That's his detail. He points andhe gets.

[KevieG]

United have a better manager than us, better players and more money.
That said, the six point swing that results from our annual shitting the course against them is what separates us from them this year.

We aren't a million miles off. As for the topic, 'Football is a simple game, complicated by idiots'

[Carra_is_legend]

Originally Posted by Paul

Reading the other thread about Rafa's progress (or otherwise) over the last four years, it struck me how taken in we've become about the notion that football is a science. Now, I'm not dimissing tactics or fitness or even rotation out of hand, but am I alone in thinking that the simple game has been over-complicated to the point of confusion? I mean, isn't winning trophies fundamentally about getting the very best players you possibly can and then letting them go out and do their stuff?

A manager's role is clearly very important and the best managers maximise the impact that their players make. However, isn't it all a bit redundant if the players aren't good enough or if what he does actually impedes what they do, rather than helps them? I just think we're all far too ready to buy into the micro-managing philosophy of Rafa and too many people then use the most obscure point to defend what is pretty indefensible.

Obviously the above could be taken as a fundamental criticism of the manager that equates to me wanting him replaced. However, surely the fact that we have improved dramatically in the league since Rafa started to simplify his selections and play more of the best players more often adds further evidence to my point?

In short, I just want him to sign a couple of top quality players who will fit into the system he's been using so well and stick with it - and them - for most of next season. If he does that, I really think we will challenge for the title. If he doesn't, I think he'll be out of a job.

You are not alone in thinking that way Paul. To me, Rafa is making it too complicated. He over analyses the game and thinks about tactics even when we play teams like Boro, Bolton, Wigan etc.

Rafa still hasn't found a system for us even though the latest system seems to be good. Did he find the latest system by accident? Why has it taken him so many years to find it?

In my opinion, as you have said, Rafa should buy no more than 2/3 quality first team players to go straight into the first team. If he thinks Barry and Degen are those kind players, then fine. I don't care if he spends £30m or nothing on a player - I just want to see players who can make a "difference" to the first team and improve what we already have. I don't want a Voronin or Pennant or Riise who make no fucking difference to the way we play. They jog around if we are playing badly or take credit when we win. I want players who can step up that extra bit when it matters or when the going gets tough. A Mascherano, a carragher, a torres, a gerrard. If we can't buy a similar one, let the money be in the bank.

I think it was two years ago, after we drew 0-0 with Boro away, Rafa said something along the lines of their defenders being taller so we were forced to use a different tactic etc. Fuck it Rafa. Let us play our own game, let us push our backline 5/10 yards forward and let them worry about us. Just unleash your best team in their best positions and see what they can do.

[El Rojo]

I believe football in general been made a lot more complicated in recent years, with managers focussing on the minutae of the game to try and gain an advantage over the opposition.

Even as a spectator sport, does it really enhance our understanding of the game to know that Jermaine Jenas has run 12,374 metres in the opening 78 minutes, or what areas Andy Johnson has received a pass in in the second half?

Sometimes I think Rafa needs to focus more on the bigger picture, but his transfer record, specifically getting rid of his own signings if they don't work out, show that he learns from his mistakes when it matters.

All that said, the forensic scientist approach to the game that he favours won him two Spanish championships at a time when Barcelona and Real were spending absolutely obscene and unprecedented money on players. I can see why he continues to persevere.

I'm not sure it's sink or swim for him next year, but it's only fair to expect some sort of title challenge . I reckon we'll see a lot less rotation, particulary in the opening stages of the season.

[KevieG]

Originally Posted by Rashid

Excellent post. The levels gone to defend him is astonishin. It's not rocket science! Fergie is hardly a technician...

10 premier league titles in 16 seasons.

Whatever he has its working

[Cardie]

Originally Posted by Paul

I mean, isn't winning trophies fundamentally about getting the very best players you possibly can and then letting them go out and do their stuff?

Not really.

Inter Milan spent a decade buying the very best and hoping that if they put them on the pitch they'd be guarenteed to win while clubs who took a more considered approach prospered, Lazio and Parma also went ballistic in the transfer market and achieved very little success.

[GJM]

There is a lot in what you say. As said above, Ferguson is hardly a tactical genius (in fact, until pretty recently, I think he has been closer to being a tactical dunce). In my view, you don't really need high level tactical acumen to challenge for the Premiership. You need do need very good players, who are fit, motivated and playing at near 100% for almost all of the season.

Having said that, I think that, all things being equal, tactical nous can make the difference between 'challenging' and winning. I think that had Chelsea stuck with Mourinho - and had he been allowed to play the way he wanted - they would have pipped United to the league this season.

[Cardie]

Originally Posted by Rashid

Fergie is hardly a technician...

Which is why he doesn't have more European Cups and only been to two finals in the what 20(?) years he's been at Utd.

[Liam]

Its simple in Britain. Rafa over complicates it at times by chopping and changing. I would rather we were a bit thin on numbers but had a dangerous first team and 4 or 5 top replacements. The rest of the squad could just be youngsters with promise, which we clearly have.

Rafa is from Spain, where being a tactical genius can obviously win you titles.

[ian garro]

Originally Posted by Cardie

Not really.

Inter Milan spent a decade buying the very best and hoping that if they put them on the pitch they'd be guarenteed to win while clubs who took a more considered approach prospered, Lazio and Parma also went ballistic in the transfer market and achieved very little success.

Thats a good point. Also, if it was just about having the best players etc, Chelsea would have fucking battered us in the 2005 CL semi. They were miles better than us in every department.

I would agree that the better players you have, there needs to be some kind of trade off, in the whole Tactics Vs "just go out and play" but you cant over-simplify it like that. At the very top end of anything, small details will make the difference.

Should also be pointed out that the likes of Paisley and Dalglish weren't shy of completely altering systems for individual matches either.

[Cardie]

Also how did Camacho, Garcia Remon, Luxemburgo and Lopez Caro fail at Madrid between Del Bosque and Capello.

[Rashid]

Yeah but if the league was so easy why are we always bumming with the shit teams around 4th?

It would be interesting to see how Fergie would do with our players. He isn't a complicated manager but he is the most succesful since Paisley. Didn't he win a European trophy with bloody Aberdeen?

[cochcaer]

I think Wenger has advanced the game and his side play the most attractive football, but United have few surprises tactically; you know how they'll play it's just hard stopping them for 90 minutes.

[ian garro]

Whats Aberdeen got to do with anything ? it was over 25 years ago ffs.

Also, the CL has been Fergusons' holy grail since 99 - and he hasnt been anywhere near it - do you think he'd have won it with that side we had in 2005 ?

As for bumming with sides down in 4th, give it a fucking rest...

[Faustus]

Put it this way, if football was simply a game of science and tactics, Rafa would win every trophy going as in terms of tactical knowledge, I don't think there's a better manager in the world.

However, it's far more than that. Motivation and psychology play a huge part whether it be geeing up your own players and making them feel invincible or putting pressure on opponents in the press are just as crucial.

More often than not, the simplest option is the best. One reason why I think Grant has done a good job at Chelsea (as opposed to some who think he's some sort of joke manager) is that he recognised that continuing what Mourinho had in place was still working. A lot of managers with bigger egos than Grant would have set about implementing premature changes in an attempt to stamp their mark on the club. I think we've seen something similar happen in the past at our own club.

Anyway, as I said, football still remains a simple game and on the field, I don't think that much has changed apart from maybe the tempo of the game, from the days of Shanks. And even then you could argue that the slow tempo of yestertear was a result of lack of knowledge about diet and well-being.

If football was all about tactics alone, then as I said, Rafa would sweep everything before him and there's no way somebody like Keegan would be managing in the Premiership.

[Cardie]

Surely Newcastle are an example of the need for a manager?

They've spent lots of money and bought some good players but fail because the supporters refuse to accept the changes in football.

As much of a cunt Sa Allardyce is he was the perfectmanager for Newcastle, someone who could instil discipline, drag the club into this century and create a solid foundation to build on.

Typically Newcastle want to build the roof before they've built the walls and sacked him for shite like Keegan.