Is football really so complicated these days?

[Neil G]

Originally Posted by Stu Monty

I clearly remember hearing Ferguson talk about both the Villa and Bolton games in a way which stated he would be taking them into account. I think he said that Bolton's physicality and Villa's wide men where "something I will consider going into the game".

This idea that the other sides just do a bit of 5-a-side and then look at a pinned-up teamsheet that says "Attack" on it is, quite frankly, naive rubbish. I think motivation is a fair point to question as I see that as a weak point in Benitez's ability and is vital over a 38 game campaign.

We have scored more goals than Chelsea this season, the team that were still in with a shout on the last day. Is caution a big issue for them? Arsenal's wild abandon in going forward has netted them just seven more than us; the facts don't bear out a cautious approach.

Stu, whenever you make withering posts like this I never know who you're aiming them at. Obviously you're caricaturing Rash's position, but I hope you're not tarring the likes of me and Brownie with the same brush. Neither of us are advocating anything as simplistic as the highlighted sentence.

Brownie and I are both concerned that the basic passing and movement of our team hasn't improved much under Rafa, and we're wondering how much emphasis is placed on this in training. Neither of us want our training sessions to be solely dedicated to that.

As for tactics, we're not asking for a simplistic Keegan-style approach of "just go out and beat them" without having any kind of game plan. We'd just like to see a little less caution and a little more risk-taking against teams that are clearly inferior to us - getting more players forward when we attack, getting full-backs to overlap more, leaving a man on the half-way line when we're defending a corner, not playing a defensive midfielder at home against teams that will put everyone behind the ball, that sort of thing.

To answer your questions about Chelsea and Arsenal: Chelsea have by and large been more defensively solid than we have this season, apart from the two freak 4-4 draws, while Arsenal blew the league because their players don't have a pair of balls between them.

[TK421]

Originally Posted by Neil G

Brownie and I are both concerned that the basic passing and movement of our team hasn't improved much under Rafa, and we're wondering how much emphasis is placed on this in training. Neither of us want our training sessions to be solely dedicated to that.

I disagree with this, I think the football we play now is light years ahead of the simpistic, one dimensial counter-attacking tripe Houllier was serving up in his last two years. We basically had one attacking option which was to play it forward quickly to Owen, or we could rely on Gerrard to come up with something special. Lots of the goals were shots from distance, I remember a time when we hadn't scored a goal in open play from inside the penalty area for several months.

Contrast that to what we have now and putting it simply I think we play miles better football. The interplay between Gerrard, Torres and Kuyt has seen us produce some good passing football, and Babel has provided a good outlet even if his use of the ball sometimes leaves a bit to be desired. Our fullbacks get forward more to support the attack and inventive players like Garcia and Benayoun would probably never have got a look in under Houllier.

[Neil G]

Originally Posted by TK421

I disagree with this, I think the football we play now is light years ahead of the simpistic, one dimensial counter-attacking tripe Houllier was serving up in his last two years. We basically had one attacking option which was to play it forward quickly to Owen, or we could rely on Gerrard to come up with something special. Lots of the goals were shots from distance, I remember a time when we hadn't scored a goal in open play from inside the penalty area for several months.

Contrast that to what we have now and putting it simply I think we play miles better football. The interplay between Gerrard, Torres and Kuyt has seen us produce some good passing football, and Babel has provided a good outlet even if his use of the ball sometimes leaves a bit to be desired. Our fullbacks get forward more to support the attack and inventive players like Garcia and Benayoun would probably never have got a look in under Houllier.

Far too often though we still give the ball away cheaply, make the wrong choice of pass and lack good passing options for the man on the ball.

I'd say reliance on the ball over the top to Owen was primarily a combination of tactics (or lack of) and not having enough quality elsewhere in the side. I don't dispute that we've improved greatly in both those areas under Rafa, but at the same time I don't think that moving on from that reliance is proof that our overall passing has improved particularly.

[TK421]

Originally Posted by Neil G

Far too often though we still give the ball away cheaply, make the wrong choice of pass and lack good passing options for the man on the ball.

Probably too often, but far too often? When you look at the possession stats, which I know are not conclusive, we normally hold our own against the big teams and dominate possession against inferior teams. I think our biggest problem is converting chances and turning possession into goals.

[cotter]

Originally Posted by Neil G

Brownie and I are both concerned that the basic passing and movement of our team hasn't improved much under Rafa

you've the memory of a goldfish if that's what you truly believe. and utterly unrealistic expectations.

[Neil G]

Originally Posted by cotter

you've the memory of a goldfish if that's what you truly believe. and utterly unrealistic expectations.

Those two sentences contradict each other, don't they?

[Neil G]

Originally Posted by TK421

Probably too often, but far too often? When you look at the possession stats, which I know are not conclusive, we normally hold our own against the big teams and dominate possession against inferior teams. I think our biggest problem is converting chances and turning possession into goals.

Possession stats can be misleading. How much ball retention consists of playing the ball sideways and backwards, whoever we're playing against?

I know that, at least up until our winning run this season, I've found myself getting just as exasperated as I did under Houllier at seeing the man on the ball isolated and most of our players stood still instead of making a meaningful run. I find this particularly frustrating because of Rafa's emphasis on player fitness. Surely if our players have more stamina they should be able to run more off the ball when we're in possession, just as they do to close the opponents down when we're not?

I also think that too often our players hold on to the ball too long when under pressure, or play a rushed pass when they're not under pressure. For me it's a question of basic footballing intelligence and awareness of what's going on around you, which can be drilled into players through repeated practice on the training ground. Maybe it's not as big a problem as I think it is, it's just that it's such a pet hate of mine that I go ballistic when it keeps happening.

[MLB]

What intrigues me is that we've outscored everyone else across all competitions and have outscored Chelsea in the league, or goalkeeper has achieved the most clean sheets and our defense has generally been very good, yet we've drawn too many games in the league. Something doesn't add up.

[Zippy]

It is still a relatively simple game but it is definitely more complicated in the past due to increased fitness levels, better organisation of most teams etc.

Rafa isn't a defensive manager but sometimes he is a little over cautious (as has been mentioned no players upfield from a corner is a good example of this). If Rafa could make his team play a little more attack orientated and more like Ferguson's we would do better in the league, the counterpoint to that is that if Ferguson had been more Rafa like in Europe he would have likely had more Champions League success IMO.

On the same theme I would say that the less gifted your team the more important tactics become. I would say that we are the least gifted team out of the top four in England and consequently tactics are more important for us than for the other top teams.

[TK421]

Originally Posted by Zippy

On the same theme I would say that the less gifted your team the more important tactics become. I would say that we are the least gifted team out of the top four in England and consequently tactics are more important for us than for the other top teams.

That's a very good point, borne out by Greece being the European Champions and teams like Porto and us winning the Champions League against supposedly better teams.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by MLB

What intrigues me is that we've outscored everyone else across all competitions and have outscored Chelsea in the league, or goalkeeper has achieved the most clean sheets and our defense has generally been very good, yet we've drawn too many games in the league. Something doesn't add up.

I think thats because when our defence is working perfectly we can steamroller teams but if they have a rare offday we get punished and end up drawing whereas teams like United and Arsenal who have significantly more creativity would still more than likely win those tight games by getting another goal or two.

[MLB]

Looking at this season's results it seems that we went off the boil around the time of the Portsmouth game. That one, along with Birmingham, Spurs and Wigan - all games that we should really have won - is where the early season optimism started to fade, for me.

[aws]

Originally Posted by MLB

What intrigues me is that we've outscored everyone else across all competitions and have outscored Chelsea in the league, or goalkeeper has achieved the most clean sheets and our defense has generally been very good, yet we've drawn too many games in the league. Something doesn't add up.

Both Chelsea and the Mancs have the knack of grinding wins out when they're playing badly. We just get a draw. My theory (based on gut instinct rather than scientific analysis) is that they are far more likely to score from a set-piece than we are.

[cotter]

Originally Posted by Neil G

Those two sentences contradict each other, don't they?

not at all. the style of football has improved out of sight, we keep the ball far better than at any time under houllier, we are consistently difficult to beat, we have the top scorer from open play in the league (only one of his goals coming from a set piece).

we've scored more goals this season than for a long time, lost fewer games, achieved over 70 points for the second time in three seasons (how many times did we achieve that under the previous regime?)

which teams exactly play more aggressive, attacking football than us? one with a manager of 20 years, and far bigger spending capacity over that period. and another who while spending less has not won as much as rafa from a much stronger base. anyone else?

when rafa took over we were the fourth team in the league by some distance (and had struggled to fifth in the season before that), had just lost owen and heskey, and were trying to play a counter-attacking game with aging and injured players. arsenal had won the league in record-breaking fashion, chelsea had just found their sugar daddy, and united had dominated the english game for fifteen years and were spending more than ever before on individual players. that kind of defecit doesn't get turned over in the blink of an eye. the fact that we've competed with and in some cases out-performed these teams in the last 4 years has made people lose sight of where we really were.

[Zippy]

Originally Posted by aws

Both Chelsea and the Mancs have the knack of grinding wins out when they're playing badly. We just get a draw. My theory (based on gut instinct rather than scientific analysis) is that they are far more likely to score from a set-piece than we are.

Good point. I also think they have more creativity and more genuine potential matchwinners than us. That combined with our woeful set-pieces means that we get punished far more when we have an offday.

[TK421]

Originally Posted by Neil G