Is football really so complicated these days?

[Neil G]

Originally Posted by Brownie I just get the impression that the Mancs just train on how to pass, move, cross, shoot etc whereas we are stood like statues going through possible walk-throughs of game scenarios. I'm not saying that's a ridiculous notion just that it over-complicates things.

I hear what you're saying. I don't think either our passing, movement or set-pieces have improved noticeably under Rafa. I wrote a piece about it in the mag last year.

People will say that if you haven't learnt the footballing basics by the time you turn professional you never will. But top pros in all sports work on perfecting their basic techniques throughout their careers and reap the benefits, so there's no reason why it shouldn't work for footballers, however technically good they are to begin with.

[Brownie]

Originally Posted by Neil G I hear what you're saying. I don't think either our passing, movement or set-pieces have improved noticeably under Rafa. I wrote a piece about it in the mag last year. People will say that if you haven't learnt the footballing basics by the time you turn professional you never will. But top pros in all sports work on perfecting their basic techniques throughout their careers and reap the benefits, so there's no reason why it shouldn't work for footballers, however technically good they are to begin with.

There's plenty of evidence to prove it as well. Remember Owen? He was always great at scoring with his right foot, but not the best in the air or with his left.

He worked on it, and then started scoring more goals with his extra skills.

[Rashid]

There are simple things that can be easily sorted but never are... e.g.

1. A few more players in the box when we get a corner or free kick
2. Leaving two players up for a counter when we are defending
3. Passing and moving it around even if there is a slight risk of losing possession

These are risks that are usually essential in a league where it is 3 points for a win... possession, attacking mentality and simple common sense like leaving players up incase we clear it.

That isn't science and United have done that for years.

[Falla]

Lets get Keegan in, we're slowly metamorphosing into Newcastle fans anyway.

Originally Posted by TK421 As for the question, sometimes yes and sometimes no is probably the answer. Maybe Rafa does overcomplicate things sometimes and maybe misses a trick by focusing on the small details instead of the bigger picture, but on the other hand I think his attention to detail is one of his great strengths as a manager. I don't agree with the suggestion that Rafa impedes the players by imposing his ideas. Most of the players talk about how they've improved whilst playing under Rafa, you only have to look at Torres and read his interviews and that is just one example. I don't think Torres produced the season he just has by being told to "do his stuff".

Great post.

[Hermes]

Originally Posted by MLB Prozone and the like have made football more like a chess match than a boxing match. The "scientific" side of it is diluting the entertainment side in some cases, but what's really making it boring is the complete imbalance between the haves and have nots.

Exactly. Before Sky and the CL the only way clubs had more money than the rest was through gate receipts via a bigger capacity or playing more games and prize money which was negligible.

Good management and the ability to pick up talented players at low cost made the difference. Hughes, Clemence, Keegan, Heighway etc cost peanuts even in the transfer market of the time.

[Nunavut Patrick]

Originally Posted by Hermes Exactly. Before Sky and the CL the only way clubs had more money than the rest was through gate receipts via a bigger capacity or playing more games and prize money which was negligible. Good management and the ability to pick up talented players at low cost made the difference. Hughes, Clemence, Keegan, Heighway etc cost peanuts even in the transfer market of the time.

You'll never uncover the likes of those players today at the clubs they came from. Even Hansen was a pittance wasn't he. The last one I can think of is Hyyppia from Willem II Tilburg.

[Hermes]

Originally Posted by Nunavut Patrick You'll never uncover the likes of those players today at the clubs they came from. Even Hansen was a pittance wasn't he. The last one I can think of is Hyyppia from Willem II Tilburg.

Other clubs do, look at the original clubs of the present England squad.

[Stu Monty]

Originally Posted by Hermes Other clubs do, look at the original clubs of the present England squad.

I thought we were talking about picking up good players?

[G Richards]

I'd like to see Rafa's attention to detail come into play in zonal marking when we defend, as well as against the better teams, especially in the Champions League.

As for attacking, I'd rather the players were simply encouraged to go out and express themselves. Get some pace and ability going forward (and we're well on ther way with that) and unleash it.

There are 16 teams in the Prem we should not give a second thought to. That's 96 points right there. I really think we can, and should, hammer the vast majority of teams week in week out.

Get you thinking cap on for the top four clashes and the CL, but other than that, unleash the players and watch them go.

[Falla]

All sounds a bit Spurs that.

If the formula for success was that simple, everyone would be doing it.

[Hatred]

Think thats a tad simplistic , as someone else pointed out psychology plays a great role in football. Over 60 games a season without it and with the pressures levelled at the players , it inevitably has too.

Also tactics are a vital part of football. Against Juventus or Barcelona or the San siro away , we could not just tell the lads to " go out and express themselves".

[Neil G]

Originally Posted by Hatred Think thats a tad simplistic , as someone else pointed out psychology plays a great role in football. Over 60 games a season without it and with the pressures levelled at the players , it inevitably has too. Also tactics are a vital part of football. Against Juventus or Barcelona or the San siro away , we could not just tell the lads to " go out and express themselves".

If you're replying to G Richards' post, he clearly said that a more tactical approach should be used in the CL. I agree with everything he wrote.

As for psychology, there would be no better way of instilling belief and hunger in our players than by sending them out to attack inferior opponents with conviction.

[Rashid]

I like Brownies post and it is probably correct.. the team plays depending on how they are coached. I can imagine our players putting on computerised goggles telling them where to run and nullify the opposition and what (chess) position to take up in about 2000 different scenarios.

[Manny]

Good thread. I reckon in it's essence football IS a very simple game. The difference is over the years as the gentrification and money has crept in, it's all moved to a higher stakes game. Any little thing you can get an advantage over your opponent can make a world of difference.

I remember thinking when Wenger did all the dietary stuff that if it meant that his players were as strong in the 80th minute as they are in the 1st, but their opponents are fucked by the 60th, that's 20 minutes of being a superior side to take advantage in. Now everyone's doing all the dietary stuff, so something else needs to be found, to get that little bit of benefit.

When the gaps between success and failure are so fine, attention to detail is needed to exploit the weaknesses. I agree though, that Rafa doesn't need to overcomplicate the easier matches. The margins there are much bigger.

[MLB]

Under Rafa our players have always seemed to play a little too much to tactical instruction. I think he's a bit obsessed with the details and doesn't let the players off the leash enough. Fortunately we now have Torres who can do something a bit different and create things for himself...

[Mikey Boy]

Originally Posted by Neil G Obsessive attention to the opponents is fine in the CL when you're up against a superior side and have to work out how to neutralise their strengths. Rafa clearly excels at this. But when you're up against weaker sides, it gets in the way. Just go out and play a strong side and a system that your players are comfortable with, and let the opponents try and figure out how to stop you.

Totally agreed.We should be letting the opponents work out how to beat us instead of us figuring out how to beat them, the weaker sides that is , like you said