Birmingham - Liverpool

[woo-lfc]

Guthrie is a decent player. If hes struggling to get in over the likes of gavin mcann and ivan campo, then honestly what chances has he got of a career at liverpool.

I realise that as we all want success, new signings such as lucas are not given as much time to settle as he needs by most. People assume players will come in and set the world alight such as torres has done. If lucas had been a high profile signing such as say babel, i doubt there would be as much pressure on him as people are putting on him now. He was brought in as 5th choice midfielder as we played 4-4-2 at the time.

He has shown glimpses of class in an encouraging first season, and deserves more time. Say this time next season if he is still in the same position and has struggled next season, then maybe peoples criticism will be justified and we could sell him for a profit.

[cracker]

Guthrie has won MOM for BWFC several times this season so at least try to look at the facts, mate tho yes it does appear that he is slightly off form at the moment as he is on the bench - maybe Megson feels he is not right to play in relegration scrap sort of games?

Like Brownie and others my opinion is that Lucas may be good long term but has yet to show for sure - Brazilian young player of the year or not!! - I do not care what award he has won I watch how he plays and form my opinion from that!!

The thing which i dislike is the attitude I see in many posters which says Lucas must be good cos he is Brazilian and did this or that in his past whilst Guthrie cos he is a home grown lad must be not fit to tie his show laces. Rubbish!! I have seen enough from DG to say he could do a job for us - tho a) I fear Rafa may sell him to raise funds and b) he may not get many chances if he does stay with our strength in midfield.

This same attitude is shown tho when it is rumoured we are thinking of signing Bentley or Barry and some come on and diss it saying we should get some dude from the Spanish or Italian league who is 'proven class'. Well wait a minute Bentley and Barry have both shown they can play in the PL, any signing from abroad is a bit of a risk. The only down side is that cos they are English the price may be inflated but those who say stuff like they are not good enough for us I disagree - either would be assets - especially Bentley IMO.

Saw this attitude in our house this morning from my 14 year old son after we read the headlines on Ceefax - plays all the time on games like Football Manager ...etc and so knows far more than me about players from abroad - he said THFC have got a great player in Modric - well IMO they might have but until I have seen him in the PL I will reserve judgement. And the same goes for any signing from abroad.

Sorry this has gone quite a way away from Lucas and Guthrie but in a way it is related!!

[woo-lfc]

Im saying that for me, Lucas has shown more quality than Guthrie. He started the season well, but he seems to me that he lacks a bit of technical ability that centre midfielders need, his passing is good, but not as good as lucas' IMO.

Im saying it is unfair to judge someone young who has gone through such a culture change and has not played frequently enough. The fact that hes brazilian makes nothing change in my opinion, I couldnt care where hes from.

I like bentley and barry, for I dont think barry is an improvement on alonso, and have said before that pennant is a good enough player and should be given a chance to prove so.

The problem about english players is that as soon as they are in the england setup, their price is inflated to an unrealistic figure, which forces us to looks abroad. Would I pay 15m for bentley, no. I'd pay 10m at most.

I would like to sign proven premiership quality but they are expensive, especially in the positions that we need.

[cracker]

Originally Posted by woolfc

Im saying that for me, Lucas has shown more quality than Guthrie.

Don't agree with that sentence - but the rest of your post was OK!!

Guthire's assets = passing, work rate, ability to deliver a dead ball, tackling, temperament. Negative = shooting and goal threat (one goal this season and none in the PL), strength?, heading and the fact that really he is not going to be the key central midfielder but just 'one of a few there' a la Alonso. He will never be a dominant midfield player at PL level but he can certainly play and will make a PL player but whether it will be for is less certain.

Re Lucas he has a lot of similar attributes tho he has never been let take free kicks for us much but certainly goal threat wise he like DG is rubbish. Personally i would like to keep the both as options next season and make a decision in say 12 months time.

I agree re Barry a bit as I do not think he is an improvement on XA and really for our transfer targets we should be going for those who improve on what we have and play in positions where we ahve a weakness - in that sense Bentley for RM is a better option than Barry as i think he is better than DK or JP in that role but we'll have to see what price he'd be first!!

[Crazyhorse7778]

Guthrie is not as good as Lucas, that is a fact.

[cracker]

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse7778

Guthrie is not as good as Lucas, that is a fact.

No that is your opinion which I disagree with.

[Crazyhorse7778]

Originally Posted by cracker

No that is your opinion which I disagree with.

Fair enough, but it's a fact that Guthrie was sat on the bench for Bolton today, while Gavin McCann and Ivan Campo started in midfield.

[cracker]

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse7778

Fair enough, but it's a fact that Guthrie was sat on the bench for Bolton today, while Gavin McCann and Ivan Campo started in midfield.

OK truce!! - yes it is a fact he was on the bench for Bolton. As I said maybe Campo and McCann are more suited to relegration scraps than Danny.

Perhaps tho I should qualify what I said as i fear it may be kept and then quoted at me in 2 years time when DG is playing for some no mark Div 1 or Championship club and Lucas is in our first team!!

What I think on the matter is that at present it is not clear who is best, either could be, but we should not write off DG as a possible player for LFC cos I think he has proved he can play a bit tho whether he will ultimately be good enough for us is unclear - maybe not but I would hate to get rid and then regret it.

[zigackly]

Guthrie is on the bench for Bolton because Megson is an alehouse football manager like Allardyce. He was brought in by Sammy Lee when he was trying to get Bolton to play a passing game.

[SCOUSE TAPAS]

Originally Posted by cracker

Guthrie has won MOM for BWFC several times this season so at least try to look at the facts, mate tho yes it does appear that he is slightly off form at the moment as he is on the bench - maybe Megson feels he is not right to play in relegration scrap sort of games?

Like Brownie and others my opinion is that Lucas may be good long term but has yet to show for sure - Brazilian young player of the year or not!! - I do not care what award he has won I watch how he plays and form my opinion from that!!

The thing which i dislike is the attitude I see in many posters which says Lucas must be good cos he is Brazilian and did this or that in his past whilst Guthrie cos he is a home grown lad must be not fit to tie his show laces. Rubbish!! I have seen enough from DG to say he could do a job for us - tho a) I fear Rafa may sell him to raise funds and b) he may not get many chances if he does stay with our strength in midfield.

This same attitude is shown tho when it is rumoured we are thinking of signing Bentley or Barry and some come on and diss it saying we should get some dude from the Spanish or Italian league who is 'proven class'. Well wait a minute Bentley and Barry have both shown they can play in the PL, any signing from abroad is a bit of a risk. The only down side is that cos they are English the price may be inflated but those who say stuff like they are not good enough for us I disagree - either would be assets - especially Bentley IMO.

Saw this attitude in our house this morning from my 14 year old son after we read the headlines on Ceefax - plays all the time on games like Football Manager ...etc and so knows far more than me about players from abroad - he said THFC have got a great player in Modric - well IMO they might have but until I have seen him in the PL I will reserve judgement. And the same goes for any signing from abroad.

Sorry this has gone quite a way away from Lucas and Guthrie but in a way it is related!!

Cant wait for all these top European clubs coming in to buy Guthrie then;

[Hatred]

An absolute disgrace. The closest I've been to leaving the game in sometime.

[isr]

Re: Lucas

What happened to the whole "need to give foreign players a year to adjust to English football" law?

Has it been repealed because of Torres?

[Alias75]

We really have to give Lucas a chance hes a very young player playing in a new continent let alone a new country, of course its going to take him time to adjust.. But he has shown glimpses that he'll be a good player for us. Against Inter twice he played well your not going to get many tougher games than that. Yes he needs to get stronger for the PL but that will happen.

Im not sure what people expected from him but personally hes played more games than i thought he would this season, when you compare him with someone like Denilson at Arsenal whose another young Brazilian midfielder thats been at Arsenal a few years more than Lucas but hasn't played the same number of PL games. Even someone like Anderson that came to Utd with European experience and cost almost treble with Lucas did, how many goals / assists has Anderson got this season?

[Paul]

Originally Posted by coop

I know what attributes Crouch brings to the team but he has one good game in five for me and unfortunatly today is one of the other four.

Fucking hell, mate - if he even plays one game in five he's lucky. I'm made up with the way Rafa has turned things around since January and the new system is clearly the way forward. However, the way Rafa has treated Crouch for the last two seasons has been bizarre and self-defeating. I defy anyone to be treated that way and feel able or even be able to come into the side at the drop of a hat and produce your best game every time. I just don't see how people can lay so much blame at Crouchie's (not inconsiderable) feet. It was happening even in pre-season, which I thought was truly bizarre after his goals to games ration for '06-'07 pissed all over those of everyone else - including Dirk, the man who usurped him in the team.

In my opinion, Crouch should be a key member of our squad/team. Plan A is obviously the one that's reaped such reward of late. However, Plans B and C would both involve Crouch, if I had any say in the matter. He can play as a partner for Torres in a 4-4-2 or as a lone striker in a 4-5-1. However, all he gets off Rafa are scraps from the table and even Voronin has played a bigger role than the big fella this season - and that's despite an absence through injury.

[OnizukaEikichi]

Lucas >>> Guthrie

[Captain]

Originally Posted by coop

Is it pronounced Plessi or do you pronounce the s at the end as when the ressies play they always say the s on the end.

The final s is mute, Coop.

We were pretty shit in this game, but at least managed to get a couple of goals in the second half. Finnan's defending was shocking for the first goal, had his name been Traoré he would have had his head ripped off on here.

I thought Pennant had a good game and was easily our MOTM. Too bad he's isn't capable of putting in performances like that on a more regular basis, then he might actually be good enough to warrant a place in our squad. As it is, I won't be surprised to see him go in the summer.

I was positively surprised at Insua when he came on. Cool on the ball, and both willing and able to go forward. I like him already. Now that we've got fourth wrapped up, I'd like Rafa to start him in our last two league games. It would do him a world of good to get that experience now.

The two best things to come out of this game was that fourth was secured and that pretty much our entire CL-team got a rest.

Roll on Wednesday.

[stringvest]

Crouch is in the team to score goals, and he did it again. It's amazing how when Torres has a shit game and scores, no-one would criticise him. If it's Crouch though, it's a different matter. Crouch has scored in his last three starts. He's doing his job.

[WaltonRed]

Agree with Paul and Captain, spot on.

[coop]

Ok we will have to agree to disagree on what Crouch offers the team because for me when he has played (yes i admit few and far between) he seems uninterested.

He has been treated badly by Rafa this season but could that be because when he has played against teams like Havant a team an International player should be tearing apart his attitude stunk.

Look at Pennant, a player abused because of his attitude asked to play in the reserves and gave it everything when he dropped down to that level.

Crouch has scored goals and if thats purely what we are measuring him on then so be it but too many times i see him take ages to control a ball and lose possesion.

Dont get me wrong because of his size i can see what Crouch can bring to the team but there is a huge difference in quality between a Torres and Crouch and as a result when Torres does not play the team suffers massively for it.

For me Crouch is a player i would be willing to sell if it allowed us to strengthen the wide areas.