DIC: takeover thread

[Ian Sea]

Originally Posted by Dirk No it isn't. It's fucking horse shit. Why the fuck would he spend an inordinate amount of work restructuring the whole scouting system, arguing with Heighway and Parry about making changes to the youth set up so it becomes more productive? For fuck's sake. Like I said, an idiot's guide to making things up to suit your argument.

Just because you say it, doesn't make it so. When we have players in the first team squad who have developed from the Academy then I'll change my mind but until then, I won't. Maybe us being able to name 7 subs next season will help that?

I think Rafa made changes to the Youth set up in the hope of discovering another Fabregas or Clichy, i.e. a quality player who can go straight into the first team. There's nothing wrong with that but I don't think he will pick just a 'good' young player, who could become world class given time and games.

Some players from our reserves could become top players but they may need to play Premier League games to gain experience and to improve themselves but I don't think Rafa will give them that chance. Insua is a prime example; our left backs have been shit all season but he has never had a chance, when he couldn't do any worse. He could have been playing in home games against shit sides to get experience but Rafa prefers to use senior professionals, no matter how bad their form or injury record is.

[honourablegeorg]

The youth system Rafa's put in place needs time.

Fabregas has been at Arsenal longer than Rafa's been at Liverpool.

[Dirk]

Originally Posted by Ian Sea Just because you say it, doesn't make it so. When we have players in the first team squad who have developed from the Academy then I'll change my mind but until then, I won't. Maybe us being able to name 7 subs next season will help that? I think Rafa made changes to the Youth set up in the hope of discovering another Fabregas or Clichy, i.e. a quality player who can go straight into the first team. There's nothing wrong with that but I don't think he will pick just a 'good' young player, who could become world class given time and games. Some players from our reserves could become top players but they may need to play Premier League games to gain experience and to improve themselves but I don't think Rafa will give them that chance. Insua is a prime example; our left backs have been shit all season but he has never had a chance, when he couldn't do any worse. He could have been playing in home games against shit sides to get experience but Rafa prefers to use senior professionals, no matter how bad their form or injury record is.

Fabregas has been at Arsenal longer than Benitez has been here. He didn't go straight into the first team, he was developed and used sparingly at first. Clichy has been at Arsenal nearly 5 years and is yet to make 100 appearances. Like I said, making things up to suit your argument but under further inspection they fail to withstand greater scrutiny. Nobody has come through because they haven't been good enough, not because Rafa doesn't give them a chance. If Rafa didn't want to bother with young players why would he invest his time so heavily in redeveloping the youth system at Liverpool. Are you one of these people that complained about rotation and losing to Barnsley?

[Rashid]

Howlers or no howlers, look at the trophies he has won there and the stadium his succdess has helped build and the NET FIGURE (which Rafa and many of us love so much) and then judge his duds and successes. It is there in black and white. Comparing the transfer of Wenger with ANY manager is akin to selling Man United reserve games tickets on the KOP.

[Rashid]

Originally Posted by Dirk Fabregas has been at Arsenal longer than Benitez has been here. He didn't go straight into the first team, he was developed and used sparingly at first. Clichy has been at Arsenal nearly 5 years and is yet to make 100 appearances. Like I said, making things up to suit your argument but under further inspection they fail to withstand greater scrutiny. Nobody has come through because they haven't been good enough, not because Rafa doesn't give them a chance. If Rafa didn't want to bother with young players why would he invest his time so heavily in redeveloping the youth system at Liverpool. Are you one of these people that complained about rotation and losing to Barnsley?

Fabregas was given his big game debut against Man United in the Charity Shield aged 16 or 17 a year after he joined. He Joined on September 11, 2003 as a child and made his debut in the Carling Cup against Rotherham a month later.

[l19red]

Originally Posted by Ian Sea Just because you say it, doesn't make it so. When we have players in the first team squad who have developed from the Academy then I'll change my mind but until then, I won't. Maybe us being able to name 7 subs next season will help that? I think Rafa made changes to the Youth set up in the hope of discovering another Fabregas or Clichy, i.e. a quality player who can go straight into the first team. There's nothing wrong with that but I don't think he will pick just a 'good' young player, who could become world class given time and games. Some players from our reserves could become top players but they may need to play Premier League games to gain experience and to improve themselves but I don't think Rafa will give them that chance. Insua is a prime example; our left backs have been shit all season but he has never had a chance, when he couldn't do any worse. He could have been playing in home games against shit sides to get experience but Rafa prefers to use senior professionals, no matter how bad their form or injury record is.

in the case of insua then you definately have a point about Rafa, but to use that one example as the clinching argument is wrong. If Rafa was deliberately keeping youngsters down when they are good enough to deserve a spot then why haven't the ones that have left gone on to become top players when they got their chance at another club?

potter, mellor, raven, partridge where are they all now?

[redrosetints]

Originally Posted by Rashid Comparing the transfer record of Wenger with ANY manager let alone Rafa is ridiculous. However much he has spent, he has near on ZERO NET spend in his 10 years there. What the fuck is there to discuss and compare? Henry was bought when nobody wanted him, Vieira was a reserve at Milan and an unknown - he took a chance on both to his credit.

Henry for 11.5, Hleb for 10m, Reyes for 17m, Wiltord for 13.5, Jeffers for 11m.

As I said each has their own talent, Wenger is the master of bringing youngsters through, I dont doubt that, but Wengers record is not 100%. And in their time in England together, Rafa has a better record, whilst also playing a side containing the likes of Lucas, Agger, Mascherano, Reina, Arbeloa, Torres and Babel.

What id ask you Rash though, is, if you were an Arsenal fan, would you have put up with 2 seasons of 4th and scrapping Cl footie on teh last day ?

[Ian Sea]

Originally Posted by Dirk Fabregas has been at Arsenal longer than Benitez has been here. He didn't go straight into the first team, he was developed and used sparingly at first. Clichy has been at Arsenal nearly 5 years and is yet to make 100 appearances. Like I said, making things up to suit your argument but under further inspection they fail to withstand greater scrutiny. Nobody has come through because they haven't been good enough, not because Rafa doesn't give them a chance. If Rafa didn't want to bother with young players why would he invest his time so heavily in redeveloping the youth system at Liverpool. Are you one of these people that complained about rotation and losing to Barnsley?

My point about Fabregas was that he was a class player when he made his debut at 16, not one of these players who makes his debut and needs 50 or so games to become top class. Some players are like that, Fowler was another. And Giggs. And Anelka. Others, like Carragher, Beckham and Stephen Warnock need games to find their feet.

I did complain about losing to Barnsley, but not because of rotation. We didn't lose because Gerrard, Reina, Mascherano or Torres didn't play; we lost because there wasn't enough commitment on the day. If we'd shown half as much commitment against Barnsley as we did against Inter then we would have battered them. And that's the frustrating thing for me.

[hamstrung]

Originally Posted by Ian Sea I don't think Rafa will give them that chance. Insua is a prime example; our left backs have been shit all season but he has never had a chance, when he couldn't do any worse. He could have been playing in home games against shit sides to get experience but Rafa prefers to use senior professionals, no matter how bad their form or injury record is.

I don't get the logic.

If someone is good enough, or showing the requisite promise, why wouldn't he play them? He'd be damaging himself and the team.

Insua is a good example, and will play sooner or later, I am sure. He has already played for the first team a number of times (in a no pressure environment which is also a key thing). As true as it is that they need experience, they also need to be protected more than senior players - especially when we are going through a rough patch.

If they are good enough, they will play. I don't see how it can be any more simple than that.

There is probably a more general point about players like Carragher not having the opportunity to develop now which might have an element of truth. But that's not a Rafa thing, that's a football (or champions league team football) thing.

[bossy]

Originally Posted by redrosetints Henry for 11.5, Hleb for 10m, Reyes for 17m, Wiltord for 13.5, Jeffers for 11m. As I said each has their own talent, Wenger is the master of bringing youngsters through, I dont doubt that, but Wengers record is not 100%. And in their time in England together, Rafa has a better record, whilst also playing a side containing the likes of Lucas, Agger, Mascherano, Reina, Arbeloa, Torres and Babel. What id ask you Rash though, is, if you were an Arsenal fan, would you have put up with 2 seasons of 4th and scrapping Cl footie on teh last day ?

He is

[Sangria]

I'm sick of this Arsenal love-in bollocks.

I liked that thread. Fuck Arsenal.

[Carra_is_legend]

Originally Posted by Ian Sea My point about Fabregas was that he was a class player when he made his debut at 16, not one of these players who makes his debut and needs 50 or so games to become top class. Some players are like that, Fowler was another. And Giggs. And Anelka. Others, like Carragher, Beckham and Stephen Warnock need games to find their feet.

Fabregas was already a top notch prospect and when Wenger signed him, Barcelona were furious. They couldn't do anything about it and he only wanted to go to Arsenal despite interest from various top clubs.

I wouldn't say he was "top class" at 16. He showed enough promise and Wenger eased him into the team.

Regardless of Wenger's achievements and transfer sucesses, he has been given time. Also, lots of money to sign young players. Time+money = dream combination for any manager.

[Moschops II]

I'd be interested to know how many of the people who argue that Benitez doesn't give young players a change have actually been at the ground when a younger player has been making one of his early appearancs, and when said younger player fucks up on the ball or with his positioning.

[Ian Sea]

Originally Posted by hamstrung I don't get the logic. If someone is good enough, or showing the requisite promise, why wouldn't he play them? He'd be damaging himself and the team. Insua is a good example, and will play sooner or later, I am sure. He has already played for the first team a number of times (in a no pressure environment which is also a key thing). As true as it is that they need experience, they also need to be protected more than senior players - especially when we are going through a rough patch. If they are good enough, they will play. I don't see how it can be any more simple than that.

I guess my point is that they may need to play to show that they are good enough. The reserve league is a joke and it's really hard for young players to show that they are good enough there.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want a team filled with youngsters who have all come through the Academy, I'd just like Rafa to give players the chance to prove themselves.

I've said for a while that we should use more young or inexperienced players in our home games. It would be good experience for them to play the likes of Derby and Birmingham, and I think we'd benefit in the long run.