The Impossible Job?

[hamstrung]

Originally Posted by Paul But it was typically provocative stuff from you Rash. There was the semblance of a reasoned debate taking shape there and you just waded in with wild and unfounded nonsense, knowing full well that it'd irritate people,

Amen.

[Rashid]

Originally Posted by Paul But it was typically provocative stuff from you Rash. There was the semblance of a reasoned debate taking shape there and you just waded in with wild and unfounded nonsense, knowing full well that it'd irritate people,

Paul, since he has been here we have finished 5th 3rd, 3rd, and this season we hope to finish 4th. That's no better than Evans or Houllier in fairness.

Every season around about this tme we see interviews from players and manager alike hoping we can finish in the CL places, usually several points off the lead.

There is a school of thought that says that the Mancs already had a great team so it doesn't matter that they have spent less than us since Rafa has been here. However, look at it another way, we were close to them in Rafa's 2nd season and then we just totally fell away the following season with them winning the league.

It is really frustrating to be honest and leads me to believe for all the tub thumping in August doesn't matter, the manager in his mind would be happy with 4th and a good run in the CL. That's how I feel... the mentality of the manager with regards to the importance he places on league success is not in tune with the fans IMO.

[hamstrung]

Evade/miss the point.

[Anny Road]

We will not win the league until we have more pace about the team. Our Midfield is pedestrian our wingers non existent. Full backs are hardly athletes and Torres apart our forwards are plodders.

I look at the top sides and I see pace throughout the teams.

[dark train]

Well thought out and correct, hat taken off.

[aws]

Originally Posted by Paul the players have to believe in the manager. It now seems like this bunch don't believe in Rafa and that is an unsustainable state of affairs for any club.

Agree with most of the rest of your post but wanted to pick out the above.

I don't think it's love and affection for the manager which holds a dressing room together - it's more likely to be a combination of respect and fear like in most workplaces.

If ferguson,wenger etc weren't getting 100% from the players then the players know that they'd be the ones out of the door. Result - they give 100%.

I think we were getting 100% from the team but about November time the yanks started undermining rafa. Result - we get less than 100% from some of them.

You could draw the conclusion that the manager should therefore go but my preference would be to get rid of players who aren't prepared to give everything. If that's their mentality in the current circumstances then they'll let you down sooner or later anyway as they're not "winners" in the true meaning of the word.

But it won't happen. The yanks have cut his balls off and we'll limp through the rest of the season unless we get on a good cup run which might motivate the whole team.

If we had new owners tomorrow who clearly backed rafa in the long term then I'm convinced our performance and effort level would soon be back to what it should be.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by aws Agree with most of the rest of your post but wanted to pick out the above. I don't think it's love and affection for the manager which holds a dressing room together - it's more likely to be a combination of respect and fear like in most workplaces. If ferguson,wenger etc weren't getting 100% from the players then the players know that they'd be the ones out of the door. Result - they give 100%. I think we were getting 100% from the team but about November time the yanks started undermining rafa. Result - we get less than 100% from some of them. You could draw the conclusion that the manager should therefore go but my preference would be to get rid of players who aren't prepared to give everything. If that's their mentality in the current circumstances then they'll let you down sooner or later anyway as they're not "winners" in the true meaning of the word. But it won't happen. The yanks have cut his balls off and we'll limp through the rest of the season unless we get on a good cup run which might motivate the whole team. If we had new owners tomorrow who clearly backed rafa in the long term then I'm convinced our performance and effort level would soon be back to what it should be.

And I agree with nearly all of that. However, it seems clear to me that the problems were already taking root before all the shite off the pitch hit the fan. The issues with the team are the same as they've broadly ever been under Rafa. The off-pitch stuff has simply made it worse.

I'm still not in favour of getting rid of him because I think there is too much still to play for and no caretaker would be up to the job. However, if there was a top class replacement ready and available now (and I've no idea who that could be) I'd sadly see his departure as the right move.

I think the only way for Rafa to turn things round is to go to the players and ask them what he can do differently. He then needs to listen and take some of it onboard. If he did that and results began to change, then it would be possible for him to win them back. I don't think it'll happen though.

Out of interest, who do you see as the players who aren't giving everything and should be got rid of?

[WaltonRed]

Originally Posted by Paul And I agree with nearly all of that. However, it seems clear to me that the problems were already taking root before all the shite off the pitch hit the fan. The issues with the team are the same as they've broadly ever been under Rafa. The off-pitch stuff has simply made it worse. I'm still not in favour of getting rid of him because I think there is too much still to play for and no caretaker would be up to the job. However, if there was a top class replacement ready and available now (and I've no idea who that could be) I'd sadly see his departure as the right move. I think the only way for Rafa to turn things round is to go to the players and ask them what he can do differently. He then needs to listen and take some of it onboard. If he did that and results began to change, then it would be possible for him to win them back. I don't think it'll happen though. Out of interest, who do you see as the players who aren't giving everything and should be got rid of?

I dont think we should bin anyone, and we cant anyway till the summer. For me Rafa wont be here and so a new manager will look at everyone with a clean slate.

As for asking the players what they want is that not sure sign he's lost them, he should lead and they should follow.

[aws]

Originally Posted by Paul And I agree with nearly all of that. However, it seems clear to me that the problems were already taking root before all the shite off the pitch hit the fan. The issues with the team are the same as they've broadly ever been under Rafa. The off-pitch stuff has simply made it worse. I'm still not in favour of getting rid of him because I think there is too much still to play for and no caretaker would be up to the job. However, if there was a top class replacement ready and available now (and I've no idea who that could be) I'd sadly see his departure as the right move. I think the only way for Rafa to turn things round is to go to the players and ask them what he can do differently. He then needs to listen and take some of it onboard. If he did that and results began to change, then it would be possible for him to win them back. I don't think it'll happen though. Out of interest, who do you see as the players who aren't giving everything and should be got rid of?

I'd start wiith Kewell and Riise .

I'd be looking very closely at Crouch, Alonso, Aurelio to decide if it's lack of effort or just lost form/confidence etc.

Gerrard isn't giving everything at the moment but I'm putting that down to him going through one of his low patches.

[RSM]

Originally Posted by aws If they overtake us it's not the end of the world. We'll have lost some bragging rights.We'll still survive . The most important thing is to re-build properly not to be pressurised into changing systems/managers/player nationalities just because the Mancs continue at the top (mostly because they don't change systems/managers/player nationalities every few years).

spot one.

[GRADY]

Originally Posted by aws I'd start wiith Kewell and Riise . I'd be looking very closely at Crouch, Alonso, Aurelio to decide if it's lack of effort or just lost form/confidence etc. Gerrard isn't giving everything at the moment but I'm putting that down to him going through one of his low patches.

It was a very good point about leading by fear and respect - how true is that.

Ferguson - we all know he does. stam, keane v.nistleroy are prime examples.

Mouriniho - again he regularly bigs up his players but when they speak/act out of term he puts them in their place. For instance carvalio spoke out about something I cant recall and mourinho said he needed an iq test. The next day carvallio was apologising for what he had initally said!

Wenger - although not as obvious as the other two I imiagine he takes no shit either.

I use the above as examples with them being recent league winners. However I also think Benitez is of the same ilk.

He is very ruthless for example when signings dont work out he tends to get rid. Kuyt maybe a notable exception although maybe he deserves more time - but im not so sure.

But in relation to the above point that you make I fail to see how riise shows lack of committment. The guy continually speaks about his love for Liverpool but whether he is good enough thats another issue.

And as for gerrard that guy must have more expectation on him that any other footballer in world football. I always thought the england fans were impatient with him. If he wasnt the best player in a game they would winge.

Some of the people on here are just as bad though. In the last game we won in the league he scored in the last minute. Although he wasnt great the other night for me he was still the most likely to create or score something. He fuckin carries our club.

Its time for some of these players such as Kuyt, voranin, pennant, kewell, alonso to actually stand up and be the best player in a game. Create something or score the first goal. Anything. They're fuckin fine when we are 2 -0 up at anfield but they never seem to be the deciding factor in any game.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by WaltonRed As for asking the players what they want is that not sure sign he's lost them, he should lead and they should follow.

I'm not talking about how to lead; I'm talking about how to build bridges.

[bobhorse]

everyone is slating Kuyt

But i can tell you as will anyone who has lost there DAD it hits you very hard but to lose him while you are a young man in a different Country while trying to perform at the very highest level in a team with little confidence is one fucking big ask

Lets support the lad when he is in a Red shirt 100% with no moans

[WaltonRed]

Originally Posted by Paul I'm not talking about how to lead; I'm talking about how to build bridges.

but doesnt that say something about the state we are in?

[Paul]

Originally Posted by WaltonRed but doesnt that say something about the state we are in?

Absolutely. We're a mess on and off the pitch.