Can results save Rafa?

[Neil G]

This poll is prompted by the fact that some people on here seem convinced that Rafa will be sacked in the summer come what may. I've suggested a couple of times now that even if G&H are determined to get rid of him because of the dispute over transfers, he can make himself unsackable if the team achieves enough for the rest of the season.

Winning the title would have ensured this, but that's all but gone now. However I still think that if the team goes on a long winning run in the league for the rest of the season and finishes on or around 80 points (which would probably put us within 10 points of the winners), and also gets to the final of the CL, he'd get enough support from the players and the fans to make G&H back down. It's a big ask, but both of those achievements are possible, as Rafa has managed them in his previous seasons. A high points total in the league would show that we'd be set up for a title challenge next season under Rafa, and a good run in the CL would confirm that he's as well equipped as anyone else to bring success in Europe.

So, if you think that the owners are determined to get rid of Rafa no matter what - in which case it will be for non-footballing reasons - do you think that there's a certain level of achievement that will keep Rafa in a job despite this? If so, can it be achieved?

Do you think that G&H will only sack Rafa for footballing reasons? In that case, the target he needs to hit to keep his job will surely be lower than in the first scenario. Won't it?

Or do you think that G&H would go ahead and sack him even if he did turn things around significantly between now and May – even by winning the Champions League? If that happened, most people would see that the sacking was for non-footballing reasons, and it would be a massive 'fuck you' to the fans from G&H that could rebound on them. Do you think they'd have the audacity to do that?

As I posted on another thread, it seems for the most part that the people on here who have most faith in Rafa's ability as a manager are the same people who are convinced he'll be sacked no matter what happens. Surely there's a contradiction here – if Rafa's most fervent supporters believe he can deliver much improved results in the second half of the season, then why don't you think that he can do that to the extent where his job will be secure?

And to pre-empt one of the anticipated responses: if Rafa needs a massive achievement to keep his job then I agree, it's unfair pressure and he shouldn't be subjected to it. But if that really is the situation then the only thing Rafa can do about it is do the best he can and hope it's enough to make his sacking for footballing reasons impossible.

This poll assumes that G&H are still the owners come the end of the season – if they're not then the situation is completely changed.

[Rashid]

I hope they can, I'd hate him to go over a disagreement. However I hope he doesn't stay for sentiment either...

[Paul]

I hope so.

[Section_31]

I think we'll get new owners and they will want to clean house and bring in their own man.

If I was a new owner I'd look back at Rafa's falling out with the Yanks and think 'can't be arsed with that'

Maureen's departure proved that no matter what you win and no matter what the fans think of you, gaining a rep as an abrasive employee will see you fucked off sooner or later.

[hamstrung]

Don't think there's an option that covers my opinion suitably.

I think its pretty much inevitable at the moment. Between them, the owners (and to some extent Rafa) have caused a situation where there is constant speculation about his future. I think this has had a definite effect on the players and also on the supporters. Putting aside the usual nutjobs, I think most people wouldn't have been against him having another season. Think the tide has turned there now.

The league has gone and the points total is irrelevant now provided we qualify for the CL. The only way I can see him staying is to win the CL. Not sure the FA Cup would be enough, mad as that is.

The problem is all this uncertainty and discontent is in the minds of the players, manager and supporters. All in all, not an atmosphere likely to spur the team on to cup success.

[real red]

First of all, if we say he's going in the summer then it assumes the stories of the past few months are true, that the owners have been discussing it since Athens, that he knew he was going to be sacked at the end of the season when he did that press conference in November, that the owners had already approached Klinsmann to take over.

In which case I really doubt he'll be here next season. Was Klinsmann offered the job? If so, and he turned it down, who will they offer it to next? Unless they are prepared to wait until the end of the season to approach anyone else, chances are they've already got their second choice signed up.

They can't sign anyone up now who's already in a job without it becoming massive news. They can't make an official approach, although they can sound someone out through agents and so on. So if their next choice is still in a job, maybe then there'll be a slight chance of results saving Rafa.

That slight chance comes if he's carried through the streets of Liverpool after closing the gap at the top to 4 points, winning the FA Cup and the CL. They might decide not to actually approach their next choice officially after all under those circumstances, because they'd find it hard to justify letting him go.

That wouldn't be the case if our next boss has already signed for the summer. If Klinsmann had said yes to the alleged offer, we'd not be able to get out of the deal quite so easily, regardless of Rafa's results. And the owners would just say that they'd already agreed with Klinsmann that he would join, that the deal had been struck in November, and that it was because of Rafa's poor attitude towards his bosses.

So all in all, no. Results can't save Rafa. They want him out regardless of results. Back in November it was too early to say for sure how the rest of the season would go. Under the cloud we're in now he's just lost six points in three games. We have a game in hand. We're twelve points from the top. From the point of view of having already made offers to replace him that's not the sign of a decision made on footballing reasons, because those six points and the game in hand could have had us three points off the top.

They want him gone, and unless they go, he'll be gone.

[Brownie]

There isn't an option there for me, really. I think the owners may want to sack him anyway, but I can't be sure about that. Even if that is the case though, if we finished fourth but won the CL and FA Cup, then there's no way they would sack him IMO.

If I was gonna go for any option, i'd go for the first one although i'm as far from convinced as some other people on here about their intentions.

[Red Nick]

The problem here is without the full backing of the owners the results wont be good enough to save him in that first option.

I think they'll sack him come what may, but if we somehow won the CL then the owners would certainly be going against the fans,

Its my opinion that the owners want Rafa to fail so they can say they are sacking him for football reasons when thats clearly not the case.

As I said in another thread there tactics may well backfire and we wont be in the CL next season

[zigackly]

Fingers crossed it won't be up to the two liars because they'll have to sell out.

[Neil G]

Originally Posted by real red

First of all, if we say he's going in the summer then it assumes the stories of the past few months are true, that the owners have been discussing it since Athens, that he knew he was going to be sacked at the end of the season when he did that press conference in November, that the owners had already approached Klinsmann to take over.

In which case I really doubt he'll be here next season. Was Klinsmann offered the job? If so, and he turned it down, who will they offer it to next? Unless they are prepared to wait until the end of the season to approach anyone else, chances are they've already got their second choice signed up.

They can't sign anyone up now who's already in a job without it becoming massive news. They can't make an official approach, although they can sound someone out through agents and so on. So if their next choice is still in a job, maybe then there'll be a slight chance of results saving Rafa.

That slight chance comes if he's carried through the streets of Liverpool after closing the gap at the top to 4 points, winning the FA Cup and the CL. They might decide not to actually approach their next choice officially after all under those circumstances, because they'd find it hard to justify letting him go.

That wouldn't be the case if our next boss has already signed for the summer. If Klinsmann had said yes to the alleged offer, we'd not be able to get out of the deal quite so easily, regardless of Rafa's results. And the owners would just say that they'd already agreed with Klinsmann that he would join, that the deal had been struck in November, and that it was because of Rafa's poor attitude towards his bosses.

So all in all, no. Results can't save Rafa. They want him out regardless of results. Back in November it was too early to say for sure how the rest of the season would go. Under the cloud we're in now he's just lost six points in three games. We have a game in hand. We're twelve points from the top. From the point of view of having already made offers to replace him that's not the sign of a decision made on footballing reasons, because those six points and the game in hand could have had us three points off the top.

They want him gone, and unless they go, he'll be gone.

That's an interesting take on it, but I don't think you can distinguish between the two scenarios of the new manager currently being in a job and not being in one (if they have one lined up of course). If the "Rafa being carried through the streets" scenario comes to pass then I still think it'll be impossible for G&H to sack him even if they've already promised the job to someone else. They might have to pay the jilted manager compensation if they've signed any kind of agreement with him, but that would be offset by the fact that they wouldn't have to pay compensation to Rafa for sacking him.

[Red Nick]

Originally Posted by Neil G

That's an interesting take on it, but I don't think you can distinguish between the two scenarios of the new manager currently being in a job and not being in one (if they have one lined up of course). If the "Rafa being carried through the streets" scenario comes to pass then I still think it'll be impossible for G&H to sack him even if they've already promised the job to someone else. They might have to pay the jilted manager compensation if they've signed any kind of agreement with him, but that would be offset by the fact that they wouldn't have to pay compensation to Rafa for sacking him.

And what makes you think they give a shit about what us fans think

If they've signed a contract with someone else they will honour it

Lets just remember Rafa is being sacked for lack of respect nothing else

[Neil G]

Originally Posted by Red Nick

And what makes you think they give a shit about what us fans think

If they've signed a contract with someone else they will honour it

Lets just remember Rafa is being sacked for lack of respect nothing else

Because if they believe we'll kick up enough of a stink they might just decide it's not worth the trouble and carry on with him. Rafa would have to achieve something remarkable over the rest of the season to get enough fan backing for G&H to think this, but that's the whole point of this thread.

As for honouring contracts, why would they be so set on doing that if they're as big a pair of snakes as you think they are?

[Red Nick]

Originally Posted by Neil G

Because if they believe we'll kick up enough of a stink they might just decide it's not worth the trouble and carry on with him. Rafa would have to achieve something remarkable over the rest of the season to get enough fan backing for G&H to think this, but that's the whole point of this thread.

As for honouring contracts, why would they be so set on doing that if they're as big a pair of snakes as you think they are?

As I said there more concerned in following management line systems and the manager showing the owners the respect they think they deserve.

I dont think anyone has crossed Hicks and lived to tell the tale

[Neil G]

Originally Posted by Red Nick

I dont think anyone has crossed Hicks and lived to tell the tale

Maybe not (metaphorically speaking), but have any of the coaches he's sacked previously had the kind of passionate and vocal backing from the fans that a successful Liverpool manager would have?

Genuine question for those who follow hockey, baseball etc.

[Rashid]

I am uncomfortable with the save Rafa, kick out G+H mob. Rafa needs to be worth saving based on results not emotion.