Is it really an injustice?

[KevieG]

Originally Posted by billybonzo 7years ?

I see what you're doing. Ferguson.


Would you give Rafa 7 years without challenging?

[TK421]

Originally Posted by KevieG There have been a few watersheds but dropping torres for 2 league games when we were actually building momentum (which we lost) and then giving him the full 90 and let him get kicked all over the park against Reading stands out.

We drew both of those games and didn't lose until December in the league, but don't let your agenda skew the facts. Twerp.

[billybonzo]

Originally Posted by KevieG I see what you're doing. Ferguson. Would you give Rafa 7 years without challenging?

Why else would i say it, sure it isnt pretty at times, but given a few more dollars and a fair wind we could be back on our perch.

[real red]

Originally Posted by KevieG how many years not challenging for the league is acceptable?

As many years as it takes for the stadium to be built and for us to start getting the extra money in. Or as many years as it takes for the youngsters to come through, allowing us to spend more money on less players.

We shouldn't have to accept that, but that's how it is because the owners clearly do not want to put any extra money into the kitty now.

[real red]

Originally Posted by KevieG I see what you're doing. Ferguson. Would you give Rafa 7 years without challenging?

We should give him more really. Ferguson took all that time whilst being fully backed by his club to improve his team. And he was also given time for the youngsters he had to come through, the likes of Beckham, Scholes, Giggs and so on.

Rafa's getting backed less in relation to those he's expected to overtake, and has only just been able to get the policies changed to his liking with regards youngsters.

[Glen C]

With this season rafa will have been in charge for 4 years. If by the end of the season we are more than 10 points off the top then to me our league form would have been a failure. So far in every season under rafa we are out of the race by january(last year it was november) and that is just unacceptable. Sven has come in and in his first season has got man city right up there. Now they may falter but right now they are looking pretty good.

People talk about if rafa had the money he would bring in better players but you can't say that for certain because he has brought in a lot of average players into the club. Yes he has had some successes but A LOT more flops. To this day i have no idea what was going through his head when he decided to fork out all that money on kuyt. Even before we signed him i wasn't impressed with him and i never have been.

It's all good that we do have a impressive record in europe but it's the PREMIERSHIP that we really want lets be honest and nothing i have seen tells me that our style of player can win the league. Rafa is too defensive, and when you play against weak opposition that likes to sit back and defend you have to commit more men forward.

I like rafa and the commitment he puts into the job but houllier put in the same commitment and nearly died for it but i still wanted him gone. If any player wasn't doing a good enough job rafa would get rid of them just like he did morientes and cisse so why shouldn't the same rule apply to Rafa. If he's not doing a good enough job he should go. So i've always said if by the end of this season we aren't challenging he should resign.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Originally Posted by Dirk All this Rafa bashing does my head in. Since when did winning the CL and getting to another final in 3 years equate to winning the Carling Cup. People, and I'm not necessarily talking about this thread, that undervalue Rafa's achievements and the value of the Champions League as a means to try and promote their anti-Rafa sentiments are, on the whole, behaving like idiots. Ask players from around the world what trophy they dream of winning, it's the Champions League. I recently saw an interview with Adebayour and he was asked what trophy he dreamed of winning most, he said the CL. I want the Prem as much as the next person but devaluing the CL on an anti-Rafa trip to try and support your argument makes you look stupid.

My sentiments exactly mate.

Fair play to you in not blowing a fuse on this one.

I am mightly pissed off with all this Rafa bashing, and I know deep down that he can do it with the correct financial backing, and that is so he doesnt have to spread it thinly.

I watched his post match interview yesterday and I really felt for Rafa, you can see his passion for the club. I heard it again on the way to work and it made me even more determined to back him.

People get your fucking blinkers off and back the manager. He achieved a phenominal amount fo success in his first 3 years. 2 trophy's and nearly a couple more. That is not shit.

I wish you would fucking get banned Rash I really do. I really wanted to throw a barrage of abuse in your direction for your pointless, ongoing I need to tell everybody my opinion that may not have seen or heard it a million times so they might just get the message. Except I stopped myself, and thought that makes me just as bad as you. I nearly punched the screen when I seen the comment "My Heart Bleeds", what if someone said that about you or even to youm, youi would not be happy, except you would cry and cry for 45 pages how an injustice has been done on you. Rafa is working hard to make sure we get to where we shold be, what our history says abut us. And you are willing to take abackward step of about 6 years just so you can say, I told you so. It's bang out of order.

The amount of shite you have spouted about Rafa lately is unreal, and no you are not your own. At the moment I am embarrassed to be associated with some of the so called 'Best Fans In The World', which we are not, we are a disgrace lately.

Everybody's entitled to an opinion and I respect that. Except I cant accept some of the real bullshit threads that have been started like this one.

ARGH!

Sort this shit out.

[Lapskaus]

for fucks sake, Rafa is a legend

[billybonzo]

Originally Posted by Glen C With this season rafa will have been in charge for 4 years. If by the end of the season we are more than 10 points off the top then to me our league form would have been a failure. So far in every season under rafa we are out of the race by january(last year it was november) and that is just unacceptable. Sven has come in and in his first season has got man city right up there. Now they may falter but right now they are looking pretty good. People talk about if rafa had the money he would bring in better players but you can't say that for certain because he has brought in a lot of average players into the club. Yes he has had some successes but A LOT more flops. To this day i have no idea what was going through his head when he decided to fork out all that money on kuyt. Even before we signed him i wasn't impressed with him and i never have been. It's all good that we do have a impressive record in europe but it's the PREMIERSHIP that we really want lets be honest and nothing i have seen tells me that our style of player can win the league. Rafa is too defensive, and when you play against weak opposition that likes to sit back and defend you have to commit more men forward. I like rafa and the commitment he puts into the job but houllier put in the same commitment and nearly died for it but i still wanted him gone. If any player wasn't doing a good enough job rafa would get rid of them just like he did morientes and cisse so why shouldn't the same rule apply to Rafa. If he's not doing a good enough job he should go. So i've always said if by the end of this season we aren't challenging he should resign.

What a load of wank.

[Nunavut Patrick]

Originally Posted by Rashid Firstly, lets forget the following: The owners are skint. Parry is a cunt and Moores sold us down the river. The owners lied to us from day one. The owners know nothing about football and are only here for the cash. The owners want Rafa out for non-footballing reasons. Now say DIC came in and we all know Al-Ansari rates Rafa a lot and would give him time, but how much time? Is Rafa being sacked the biggest injustice in football? There is pressure at every top European club and we are one of the most successful of the lot. Rafa has a 5 year contract but he has also been here for nearly 4 years. CL final's won't be happening every year although it may seem that way, so how do we measure progress? He has a poor league record (for a club our size), once not even satisfying the clown Moores' minimum requirement. This season we are fighting with Everton and Citeh and not United and Arsenal. His transfers have generally been good but in nearly four years he has yet to buy a wide player of genuine quality and after about 6 attempts he has finally bought a striker worthy of the name. The current crisis at CB and LB is his own doing after the Heinze debacle last summer where he laid all his eggs in one basket - normally known as transfer suicide. He hasn't had Chelsea money but he hasn't been skint either. I think us the fans in our hatred for the American's are getting a little carried away with the Rafa thing, he should be under pressure like any manager should. Those that say he doesn't have money should remember it doesn't take huge sums to beat Luton, Wigan and Birmingham etc. I know Rafa is under pressure and he will go at the end of the season barring new ownership and I would hate the Americans to do it for non-footballing reasons. Rafa deserves 4 full season on the back of that glorious night in May 2005 but it would be dangerous to live off that forever. Dave Usher said recently on a TLW match report, that whilst he doesn't trust Rafa to buy the players needed for us to challenge, getting rid of the owners first should be the priority. It is hard to argue with that although it does make you question why you would want a manager in charge you don't trust 100%, irrespective of the owners. I think we need to step away from this "poor Rafa" situation and understand that a club like ours should not be fighting each year with Blackburn and Everton for 4th place. In my opinion, should Rafa not challenge for the league this season then him leaving after 4 years in charge trying to catch Arsenal and Manchester United and failing would not be the huge "injustice" we are building it up to be.

What crisis at LB/CB? The latest round of hysteria seems to be focused on the last three draws. City was 0-0, Wigan scored from a botched Gerrard clearance and Luton scored from Riise in an FAC match where Riise would have started if anyway. We have three quality CBs in Agger, Carra and Hyypia.

Poor League Record for a club our size- your minimum requirement comment is a joke and you know it. Missed out on second by one point one year, comfortably 3rd two years running. The season is not over. For a cluib our size we are fiishing where we are supposed to be finishing- behind Chelsea and Mancs and in the first year we won the EC.

I don't think Rafa will win the League for other reasons; certainly not a crisis at LB/CB.

As for trying to catch Manchester/Arsenal- we overtook Arsenal the last two years and came within a point of the mancs one of those years. I guess Wenger should have been sacked for finishing behind us those two years?

Let's wait until the end of the season,eh?

[stringvest]

I feel that even if we finish out of the top 4 this season Rafa should not be sacked. Instead, he should be told that he will be here until at least the completion of the new stadium. We need a guiding hand over this period, and while it's improbable we'll get any nearer winning the PL in that time, we need the best possible man in to stop any rot from setting in.

[Fallen Angel]

The injustice or otherwise of replacing the manager is not the issue. The only thing that needs to be considered is if the replacement would move the club forward faster or not, and as we don't know who that replacement may be, it is difficult to judge.

My feeling is that Rafa deserves more time to get this right, changing the manager now takes us right back to square one, another period of transition during which the Mancs could take our record for titles. I can not see anyone who is currently available and interested, who could achieve the required progress with the current level of finances available.

And that is not to say the sun shines out from Rafa's hoop, he has made mistakes both in the transfer market and tactically, I just hope that he can rectify them and start being more positive.

As with most things, hinsight will prove to be 20/20...

[KevieG]

Originally Posted by TK421 We drew both of those games and didn't lose until December in the league, but don't let your agenda skew the facts. Twerp.

our momentum.

wake up

[dirty_sanchez]

Originally Posted by Rashid Firstly, lets forget the following: The owners are skint. Parry is a cunt and Moores sold us down the river. The owners lied to us from day one. The owners know nothing about football and are only here for the cash. The owners want Rafa out for non-footballing reasons. Now say DIC came in and we all know Al-Ansari rates Rafa a lot and would give him time, but how much time? Is Rafa being sacked the biggest injustice in football? There is pressure at every top European club and we are one of the most successful of the lot. Rafa has a 5 year contract but he has also been here for nearly 4 years. CL final's won't be happening every year although it may seem that way, so how do we measure progress? He has a poor league record (for a club our size), once not even satisfying the clown Moores' minimum requirement. This season we are fighting with Everton and Citeh and not United and Arsenal. His transfers have generally been good but in nearly four years he has yet to buy a wide player of genuine quality and after about 6 attempts he has finally bought a striker worthy of the name. The current crisis at CB and LB is his own doing after the Heinze debacle last summer where he laid all his eggs in one basket - normally known as transfer suicide. He hasn't had Chelsea money but he hasn't been skint either. I think us the fans in our hatred for the American's are getting a little carried away with the Rafa thing, he should be under pressure like any manager should. Those that say he doesn't have money should remember it doesn't take huge sums to beat Luton, Wigan and Birmingham etc. I know Rafa is under pressure and he will go at the end of the season barring new ownership and I would hate the Americans to do it for non-footballing reasons. Rafa deserves 4 full season on the back of that glorious night in May 2005 but it would be dangerous to live off that forever. Dave Usher said recently on a TLW match report, that whilst he doesn't trust Rafa to buy the players needed for us to challenge, getting rid of the owners first should be the priority. It is hard to argue with that although it does make you question why you would want a manager in charge you don't trust 100%, irrespective of the owners. I think we need to step away from this "poor Rafa" situation and understand that a club like ours should not be fighting each year with Blackburn and Everton for 4th place. In my opinion, should Rafa not challenge for the league this season then him leaving after 4 years in charge trying to catch Arsenal and Manchester United and failing would not be the huge "injustice" we are building it up to be.

Well yeah, I see what you're getting at, but you could argue that Real Madrid's managerial merry-go-round is a bigger injustice. I mean, they sacked Capello after he won the league, and Heynckes (I think, or was it Del Bosque???) after winning the Champion's League.

[billybonzo]

A great point made on another forum by ricflairandy is to just take a look at whats happened to Valencia since Rafa left.....