a mate of mine emailed me this from
www.sheffieldforum.co.uk.cant believe it.why the f~ck does this country always bash our city?like we have some wankers who support our club but their making us all out to be scum.anyway a part of me feels i shouldnt post this here but i just felt so pissed of about it.
In my opinion, the blame for the tragedy should have been placed solely on the people who pushed their way into the football ground and caused so many people to die. If any of them were identified, they should have been prosecuted for manslaugher, instead of trying to shift the blame off themselves onto the police who were trying to do the best they could in an extremely difficult situation. A few of the families of those who were killed lost a lot of my sympathy when they tried to pin the blame on the police instead of acknowledging that the deaths were the fault of other Liverpool fans.
timo
The whole situation has become almost an industry on Merseyside, with Liverpool supporters portrayed as 100% blameless victims. As the late Auberon Waugh commented in his Way of the World column in the Daily Telegraph at the time, the self-pitying cry of "Uzza Gain!" replaced "Gizza Job!" re the tragedy. Certainly, many genuinely blameless and decent Liverpool supporters died in a particularly horrible and undignified way. However, contributors like Tosh are essentially correct regarding the drunken behaviour, and Tony hits the nail squarely on the head regarding the moronically-stupid "fans" who used brute force to enter the ground. The problem with Merseyside working/lower middle class culture in my [ten years] experience is that it is a culture which places a very high premium on sentimentality, self-pity and "feelings". Perhaps this can be, in various ways, traced back to the strong ties with Ireland [famine etc], and a long tradition of casualised labour re the docks etc. However, it can become a distinct pain in the neck when Liverpudlians , with their highly-developed sense of collectivity ["If you're not with us, you're against us", cannot separate emotion from intellect. So many of them make emotion the referent of their arguments, so that to dissent from their views is to be AGAINST them. The "Victim" culture has caught on so well in Liverpool, especially re Hillsboro, and it is seen as beyond question that the Police and Wednesday are to blame. As a Blade, I am no lover of the Owls, but I have strongly objected to paralytically stupid articles in the Echo which continue to lay blame on the club as well as Police. There is NO CHANCE that the tragedy will be laid to rest. No disrespect to the deceased, and families of the injured and deceased, but there are too many people with too much invested to let it lie. As a Sheffielder, I am frequently astounded at the ferocity of the hatred expressed towards S.Yorks Police to this day on Merseyside. The grudges are irremediable, the situation insoluble.
Damon
I would suggest that with the way football was being run throughout the eighties, a tragedy of this nature was going to happen somewhere, sometime. Due to the layout of the Leppings Lane end it is not completely surprising, with the benefit of hindsight of course, that it occurred there.
In the climate of the time, Hillsborough was considered to be one of our showpiece stadiums, when in fact it did not even have a valid safety certificate.
Considering this serious oversight, and the fact that a very senior police figure was lying about what occurred as early as 3.15pm on the day, I think we can at least acknowledge where some of this anger stems from.
Tony
I have to disagree about the Irish thing. My fathers family are from a very poor Irish Catholic background and came here simply to find work. There is NO self pity in our family.
It is a curiously scouse (git) thing.
I also hated the play Blood Brothers by Willy Russell. I somehow knew the plot before I saw the play. I wasn't disappointed.
timo
Tony, my wife's family are from the same background, and they too are not at all self-pitying. I should have been more lucid. I refer to the unique Liverpool-Irish mentality [of both Catholic and Protestant strain] which does APPEAR to be self-dramatising and rather self-pitying in relation to the Northern English character. I often hear Liverpudlians say that they do not feel English, and that they descend from the poorest of the poor Irish. Sometimes too, one can encounter anger about something "the English" did to Ireland centuries ago. Never mind that the parties involved are long, long dead. This kind of mentality helps nobody, and in fact perpetuates the myth of inherited racial guilt. Maybe a people who endured the huge psychological wrench involved in the famine, and who have a diaspora larger than the existing population can be allowed a little sentimentality and occasional self-pity anyway. I just think that, to reiterate, when emotional reasoning gets in the way of logical, intellectual rigour we are in trouble. That is what has happened in the case of the unique, Liverpool-Irish response to the tragedy we are discussing. There is a philosophical gulf between Liverpool and the rest of Northern England, and I often feel that the people have more in common with Dubliners than Mancunians, Sheffielders etc. From a scientific point of view too, extremely high frequencies of blood group O are found in Liverpool, only matched in parts of Ireland and the Basque territories, so I think we cannot rule out the Irish influence in cultural and biological terms. Hope I don't offend anyone here, and especially you, Tony.
Plain Talker
I have Liverpudlian relatives, who were there, at Hillsborough, that day. Thank God, they got out alive.
It took from the Saturday afternoon, until 10 to 10, on the Monday night, to get a phone line that was clear, to Merseyside. That two or three days, waiting to hear news of my cousins, and to know that they were safe, although traumatised by the scenes, was one of the worst experiences in my life.
I and Mr PT agree, that, whilst it was the most dreadful, and unnecessary loss of life, there are elements amongst the grieving/ on merseyside who will not rest until the head of the chief constable of SYP is served to them upon a platter.
Full stop.
No recriminations against the merseysiders who arrived late, drunk and ticketless, and forced their way into the ground, causing the crush.
Thing is, almost none of the 96 who died were drunk.
Every one of the people who died had been at the ground legitimately, in good time for the kick off, in possession of valid tickets. (as I understand it)
The crush WAS caused by the lame- brained, ticketless, drunkards who decided to storm the gates.
The police, although they were not entirely prepared for the crush that happened, were on something of a "hiding to nothing".
They kept the gates at Leppings Lane closed?
and what?
hundreds could be killed in a crush outside,
and the police would be castigated.
alternatively? the police open the gates and allow the crowds that were storming the gate to go into the football ground...
and what? 96 people died,
and the police were castigated.
the S_Y police were in a lose-lose situation, that day.
I agree that they were poorly prepared that day, and because of the melee, that compounded poor decision making.
but, if the latecomer supporters had not turned up late, drunk and ticketless, the crush would not have happened.
PT
Tony
Quote:
Originally posted by timo
Hope I don't offend anyone here, and especially you, Tony.
No timo, you didn't offend at all, and I apologise if I seemed a bit harsh.
I was just contrasting the differing attitudes. My Grandfather was one of 9 (or was it 11) children brought up in Kerry in a very poor environment. Half the children came to England and married English partners whilst getting on with their lives.
I have a special disregard for 'scousers' as a breed, though I know and like many Liverpudlians. I think that many (certainly not all) like perpetuating the 'Gods Own Unemployed' myth. The scum that perpetuate the lie that the Police or SWFC were to blame on that day come squarely into that category. At the risk of repeating myself for the third time - I hope they rot in Hell.
timo
Cheers, Tony. I share your dislike of a minority of "Professional Scousers", who I think are quite different from the majority of the Liverpool population [it is possible to encounter quiet, reflective and well-mannered types in the city, believe me]. Perhaps they have their equivalents in all cities. What is different with the Professional Scouser is his inability to laugh at himself. For a people who pride themselves on humour, they can be very touchy, easily-hurt and without any humour whatsoever regarding jokes about Liverpool. As a Sheffielder, if I ever hear anything rude about my city [in exile] I don't get upset. I KNOW that I am from people who are second to NONE. Our Scouse friends get very self-dramatising about anything anti-Liverpool to the point that they see the jokes that portray them as "scallies" as a form of racism and evidence of a widespread "conspiracy" against them. Re Hillsboro, this tragedy is seen as yet another chance for "them" in positions of authority to victimise Liverpool collectively.
dragonsoup
Having worked all over England and Scotland, I can honestly say that I have never hated anywhere as much as Liverpool. Could some of the whining and negativity come from parts of North Wales as there must have been a certain influx of these people as well as Irish blood. Never found Irish people to be as negative as this.
Dragon
brooksy
must admit having worked in liverpool they do seem 2 have an inbuilt hatred of everyone not from mersyside.
timo
Dragon, you make a valid point here re the Welsh contribution to Liverpool life. It is often overlooked at the expense of the Irish contribution. I don't know about the whining and sentimentality, but certainly the accent owes much to North Wales as well as to Ireland. If you are ever in Wrexham, have a listen to the way they speak there- very similar indeed. Before the influx of Welsh and Irish incomers, Liverpudlians apparently had an accent akin to rural south Lancs- "LOOk 'ere MUtherrr" etc [bit like Coronation Street's Fred Elliott]. If you hated Liverpool then, you'd really hate it now with all the Capital of Culture ******** going on...
kirky
Quote:
Originally posted by Andy
It's 15 years ago today since the tragic events at Hillsborough.
What are peoples memories of that day?
this is true........i was working in the mobil petrol staion(now BP) on saville street (top job i know) about 25 mins before kick off a mini bus full of scousers came flying in wanting direction for hilsboro..obviously well late and in a rush..being my mature self i sent them to bramall lane..who knows if i'd have given them the correct directions they could be dead now.....
as i was walking back through town after work towards pond street i remember every phone box having a massive que i couldn't work out why.
alchresearch
Quote:
Originally posted by kirky
this is true........i was working in the mobil petrol staion(now BP) on saville street (top job i know) about 25 mins before kick off a mini bus full of scousers came flying in wanting direction for hilsboro..obviously well late and in a rush..being my mature self i sent them to bramall lane..who knows if i'd have given them the correct directions they could be dead now.....
as i was walking back through town after work towards pond street i remember every phone box having a massive que i couldn't work out why.
I was out all that day and noticed loads of helicopters flying to and from Netherthorpe aerodrome. Wasn't sure what was going on until I got back home to a TV.
I remember Hallam FM doing a special show where they helped find beds for everyone. Brings a tear to my eye now how much the Sheffield folk did what they could to help.
wibbles
***************
Tony
Wibbles, you obviously have experiences that run deep, but so do others.
The truth of the matter was a large number of Liverpool supporters turned up late and drunk and attempted to force entry to the ground, as they had done on previous occasions.
The sadness of the event was that those who died were by and large those who had turned up early and had been in the ground for some time.
I've seen no disrespect in this thread towards those who died or to their families. Quite the opposite if anything.
The Police reacted to events that day. Maybe not perfectly, but they were in an invidious position and they did not create the situation. On that day, the Police had a situation that was never going to end any other way.
When there was so much pressure outside that a Police horse and rider was lifted from the ground, and supporters continued to ignore Police tannoy requests to move back the Police had only 1 option to prevent deaths outside in Leppings Lane.
The rest is sad history.
wibbles
***************
Tony
Wibbles I respect your opinion, but I'm sorry to say that I fundamentally disagree with you on the root cause, and it's not from hearsay or the like.
For some reason it was the first semi that I had missed for maybe 10 years, having always had a season ticket at the West edge of the North Stand, so no, I wan't there. But what I know is directly from...
A close relative who was a police officer (just a PC) at the West Stand that day who heard and saw everything including the police radio messages, and was crushed himself in that tunnel.
Knowing the club secretary at the time (quote, 'all I did was go to work that day - they accused me of murder')...
The Leppings Lane resident who had drunk scousers defecating alongside her house BEFORE the match.
The pub landlord who had his pub smashed up by drunks AFTER the match.
I am afraid that drunk fans DID turn up late that day, and yes, plenty had no tickets, as was the habit at the time.
There are many parties that carry some sort of responsibility for how things unfolded that day, but only 1 side has NEVER taken any responsibility for being the root cause.
I've said my piece, and I would rather stay out of this argument now thanks wibbles.
wibbles
***************
joestrummer
wot pub was smashed up after the game???
Tony
Wibbles, these aren't lies, they are the real first hand experiences of people who were there and who have no axe to grind.
I'm sorry you don't have the time for others views on this topic. :shakes: I know how deep it runs for a lot of people.
I'm really out of it this time.
owdlad
I think this about the time this thread was closed.
I have kept out of this because having had a season ticket for the West Stand for more years than I could remember, I could not have given a balanced comment.
We all acknowledge that it was the innocent who died at Hillsborough, and no amount of finger pointing is ever going to bring them back.
Wibbles you are not alone in continuing to grieve for the dead, but let us all just stop and let them rest in peace.
owdlad.
wibbles
***************
timo
Nobody on this forum has shown any disrespect towards the injured and dead of Hillsboro. May the dead rest in peace.
kirky
Quote:
Originally posted by timo
Nobody on this forum has shown any disrespect towards the injured and dead of Hillsboro. May the dead rest in peace.
my thoughts exactly........as any of the thread been deleted coz i can't find owt wrong either:confused:
Tony
Mod: up to this point it's all still there
dragonsoup
It was quite amazing how quickly the finger was pointed at the police, even before full facts were heard or people had time to grieve at all.
People did get there very late,try to force their way in Did urinate, vomit and sh.. in the passages around Leppings Lane.
I too have cause to be bitter, having been chased, kicked and punched on Shoreham Street when leaving the ground by a group of grown men supporting Liverpool who were at the match at Bramall Lane when I was 12-13. I remember it well but am not running aroung looking for compensation.
Dragon
markham
I've kept away from this thread on purpose as I felt I had nothing to offer on such a sad subject.
However, can anyone categorically say that several hundred Liverpool supporters tried to get into the ground late either without tickets and/or drunk?
Is this a true fact or not? I can't comment on the horrible tragedy unless I know these facts.
Thanks for any info.
Patchy
Whether or not the people trying to get in were drunk, people wouldn't have been killed if the people outside hadn't shoved their way in. There is no way you can force your way into a crowded place like that without knowing you are shoving other people. Has Justice For Hillsborough ever tried taking any of the people who actually caused the crush to court?
markham
Thanks for that Patchy, I wasn't defending them. How many didn't have tickets either?
Oh, and by the way, they won't get the blame as long as we've got the good old British bobby to blame ..... as usual!
coopster1974
Quote:
Originally posted by markham
I've kept away from this thread on purpose as I felt I had nothing to offer on such a sad subject.
However, can anyone categorically say that several hundred Liverpool supporters tried to get into the ground late either without tickets and/or drunk?
Is this a true fact or not? I can't comment on the horrible tragedy unless I know these facts.
Thanks for any info.
At the time I lived on Harris Road, opposite the training ground. Even up to 15 mins AFTER the kick off there were still DRUNK Liverpool supporters staggering down the road towards the ground.
Mind you, it still happens now! Part of the "experience" I suppose.
tosh13
Quote:
Originally posted by wibbles
I have just stumbled across this thread purely by accident and read with interest (being a Liverpool fan feeling lucky to be alive as I was in the North Stand but my close friends were in Leppings Lane) and I have never felt so disgusted and ashamed as I feel now to be associated with this forum and certain members who post here.
To the person who says we never hear anything about Bradford or Heysel. Thats because that didn't happen in Sheffield. This is a Sheffield Forum!!!!!
If you want to find out information about both and the memorial services that take place every year in Liverpool and Turin to remember the Heysel Tragedy..as for Braford..well try looking up Bradford City' website and find out more.
To all the people who think we should let it go and stop our 'self pity'. Imagine losing friends and relatives and never having closure or real justice for your son's, daughters, friends etc who have died. South Yorkshire Police are blamed for reasons that are evidently clear but yet the people responsible walk free.
To all the people who read the papers and believe what they see in the magazines try searching on the Internet for written stories about people's own experiences having actually been there. I could write a 1000 page story without thinking about it to share my experience and what I saw but it is too painful to do so without having all those terrible memories come back which make me cry uncontrollably!!!
If I could I would report this site to someone for failure by the moderators to control opinions which are disrespectful, ignorant and bigoted towards the people that died and their families. But I will be letting people from the Justice for Hillsborough campaign and other associations know what has gone on in this thread.
Some of the opinions in this thread are no better than what The S*n newspaper printed in the days affter the tragedy.
As I said in my post no offence to the relatives & people who died on that tragic day,and the reference was made about Heysel & Bradford,that these people have moved on from there tragedy & they are not in the news & Liverpool is not in Sheffield either.As far as I have seen most posts have said no disrespect about the people who died & the relatives of the dead,just the drunken fans,which undoubtably there were, and as far as being no better than the Sun newspaper that is an insult to everyone concerened with this thread.I am a Mirror reader & hate the Sun,what was said in there newspaper was not sympathetic to the dead or families of the dead.The innocent died that day & it was a terrible accident waiting to happen .But to put the blame on everyone who comes from Sheffield is out of order.We live in a society of freedom of speech,if we cannot say what is the truth,then we should keep our opinions to ourselves.
timo
Wibbles, I am genuinely sorry if the postings on this thread[including mine] have upset and offended you. However, your threat to involve the Justice Campaign and "other associations" is over the top and highly likely to cause further grief to the bereaved families through misunderstandings. Your reaction is, in my view, based on emotion [perhaps understandably] and you do not appear to be prepared to listen to any viewpoint which does not cast Sheffield Wednesday and South Yorkshire Police as 100% to blame. Read the postings carefully, yes, there are references to [subjective opinion] observed cultural traits, but there is no disrespect shown to the dead. I've heard Liverpudlians say, of the club and police force, "What do you expect from thick Yorkshiremen" etc, etc. This is not "racism", as you suggest since neither Yorkshiremen nor Liverpudlians are a "race". Maybe there are some postings which express a dislike of Liverpudlians, but that is freedom of speech. What about the sheer hatred one encounters in Liverpool expressed towards "mancs", or people from Manchester, and the contempt many Liverpudlians show towards "woolybacks" from Wigan, Preston etc?! Your threat to inform the Justice Campaign is akin to telling tales to teacher. We are adults- DEBATE the issue. We will treat your postings with respect. I reiterate, may the dead rest in peace.
derek
As a resident of the area for over twentyfive years I have been following this thread with interest, but without comment until now. It is obvious that there will never be any public acceptance of any degree of culpability from the residents of Liverpool. No doubt there is as much heresay and and third hand accounts of the events being told in Liverpool as there is in Sheffield. Two facts remains crystal clear after all the exchanges.
1/ The victims were the innocent ones, they had tickets, they
arrived in plenty of time to enjoy a football match, they were no doubt soaking up the experience of a cup semi on a glorious spring day, no one is saying that they were in any way responsible for their fate.
2/ The tragedy happenned at the Leppings Lane end, which was reserved for Liverpool fans. If it wasn't Liverpool supporters pushing to get in, then who in God's name was it!?
AS I said at the start of this post, I live here. I was still here the day after, and the day after that etc. Those directly involved know the truth and no amount of Forum postings or newspaper articles or comments in biographies (read Brian Clough's) will alter anything. Some of the people involved may now have children of their own and mey be a little wiser now. THEY HAVE TO LIVE WITH THEIR CONCIENCES!
That's my ten pennorth on the subject, it will be my last.
tosh13
I Totally agree with Timo & Dereks on everything they said in there last posts,no one meant to cause offence,my ancestors came over from Ireland & many lived in Liverpool & probably still do,I have never had a bad word to say about Liverpool folk,we all have our own sadnesses in one way or another,but the plain fact is this argument will go on for generations,so this is my last post on this sad subject.
kookie
My Uncle was working in the restauraunt in the ground, (can't remember what it was called). But it ended up being taken over as a 1st aid post come mortuary. He found it it deeply disturbing, what should have been one of the best days/matches of the season with everyone in good spirits degenerate into such a terrible event.
timo
In my case, a friend of mine was on the pitch on the day and witnessed everything- he was then a steward for the Owls. Another friend [more a friend of my wife's actually] operated on some of the injured and dying at the Hallamshire Hospital. So many of us DO know what went on, and we ALL sympathise with innocent fans and their families. We are not the monstrous bigots Wibbles suggests. There is nothing more to say now.
TINK91
try using an officer who had policed a football game before or at least had knowledge of the 88 semi with the same fans, then try and employ police officers who are not just looking for rioting inside the ground and should actually be concerned about crowd control outside as the fences did there horiffic job inside.
anyone with the view from the police box inside faced with the problems outside fed to them via radio would have opened the external gates,
but anyone with the sight of the packed middle pen and a knowledge/map or layout of the ground at the leppings lane end would have first closed the middle internal gates forcing the fans up the two wings towards half full pens at the side.
drunk/eager fans are one thing but the police are there as public servents and duckenfield was not up to the job.
MobileB
I was at a football game at Stocksbridge on that day. A player in the game broke his leg and it took 40 minutes for an ambulance to come. The driver said something big had gone off at Hillsborough but they didn't know what at that stage.
I read on here plenty of threads about the drunken supporters but at the end of the day, there were some fundamental basics in crowd control missing that day and many of the problems could have been solved outside the ground with proper control.
As a regular football supporter for over 30 years, anyone who went to games in the mid 80's (when attendances bare in mind were at their lowest ever) will tell you that the fencing in of supporters was an accident waiting to happen. Ken Bates even threatened to electrify the ones at Chelsea at that stage - imagine what would have happened at Hillsborough if that had been the case.
I can recall numerous instances where overcrowding and heavy crushes followed because of a complete lack of control - clubs and in particular the police were only interested in hooliganism and not crowd safety.
In particular, I remember going to one game at Valley Parade - before the fire - where the open kop was split in with a fence down the middle. Adults paid to get in by paying £2 through a turnstile (that price tells you how long ago it was!) and Kids paid £1 going through the exit gate that was opened up a little and paying their quid to a man with a money bag!! Needless to say, the numbers involved meant that everyone just paid the man a quid - God knows how much he pocketed!
Anyway, the official attendance was something like 11,000 but in reality there was probably double this inside the ground. You could barely move. The fans took to throwing bricks at each other over the fence. With so many in the ground, if one came in your direction you had no way of avoiding. They were constant surging as people tried to dodge the bricks - with crash barriers in the middle of the kop that wobbled!! Them at the front did not stand a chance.
And after the game, you were literally lifted off your feet as people tried to get out to this one exit gate.
At least United won!
I was at a game at Rotherham when a wall collapsed at the Tavolli end with a mix of Rotherham and Blades supporters in. Thankfully there were no fences that day.
That was some 7 or 8 years before the Hillsborough Disaster and yet obvious lessons were still not learned about opening up gates and not letting people in through exits. And crushes at front of grounds.
The politicans at the time said all football supporters are animals and they should be boxed like them. How much of the blame did they take after Hillsborough?
I am not saying through all this that the actions of a small number of Liverpool supporters (there were in reality over 25,000 of them at that game) did not play a part, but some basics in crowd control were not in place by inexperienced and inept people and quite rightly the finger was pointed afterwards.
But the saving grace is that football in this country advanced by an unbelievable amount as a result and the game is better for it.
kirky
i was at the bradford game you mention......i think we won 2-1,but yes the organisation was terrible that day.
Survivor
A few sane voices on here, mostly drowned out by the sea of sheep - once one person mentioned the 'lot of Liverpool fans totally smashed' (which was later reduced to 'several' by the same person), the floodgates opened.
People saying that pubs were drunk dry, people who say they work in Liverpool, even complete oxygen-thieves who simply hate Liverpool and it's people.
I don't expect any of you people to visit this site, but if you do, your eyes may be opened just a smidge:
http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/
And don't bother replying to this post, as I certainly will not be wasting anymore of my precious time reading this utter rubbish.
Goodbye, and enjoy the Coca Cola League 1 (or the 3rd division as it is really). You and your 'football club' deserve each other.
Tony
The truth hurts sometimes - but it's the truth.
timo
Funny that, I don't remember UNITED being in the Coca cola league 1.
pitsmoorlad
Quote:
Originally posted by Survivor
A few sane voices on here, mostly drowned out by the sea of sheep - once one person mentioned the 'lot of Liverpool fans totally smashed' (which was later reduced to 'several' by the same person), the floodgates opened.
People saying that pubs were drunk dry, people who say they work in Liverpool, even complete oxygen-thieves who simply hate Liverpool and it's people.
I don't expect any of you people to visit this site, but if you do, your eyes may be opened just a smidge:
http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/
And don't bother replying to this post, as I certainly will not be wasting anymore of my precious time reading this utter rubbish.
Goodbye, and enjoy the Coca Cola League 1 (or the 3rd division as it is really). You and your 'football club' deserve each other.
Have read much of the link, and it brings back some painful memories as I was working there. But I have to say it is a rather jaundiced viewpoint, though that's probably understandable.
Football fans know that supporters of teams who often got to semi finals used to turn up at the ground whether they had tickets or not. It's a fact. Police found the extra fans easier to control inside the ground. This particular time the numbers were swelled by those with tickets arriving late. We all know what happened next.
I really sympathise with the bereaved but for goodness sake lets be realistic. How come everything the fans said seems to be true and everything bad said about the fans is a lie. How come no fan has ever stood up and said "yes I was drunk, no I didn't have a ticket, and I'm sorry". Sorry for ranting on. Perhaps as there's never going to be a satisfactory conclusion to this thread, it should be confined to the archives.
Plain Talker
Very true, pitsmoorlad...
*Have* any of the "fans" who arrived late, whether they were drunk or not, ticketless or not, who tried to barge their way into the ground *ever* held their hands up and said, "Sorry, Yeah, it was wrong of us!"....?
As much as the Merseysiders have vilified the SY police, the fact remains that, but for the crazy behaviour of the latecomers, this dreadful incident would never have happened.
The police were "damned if they did, and they were damned if they didn't."
As I said in my earlier post, had they (the police) decided to close the gates, and prevent the latecomers/ drunks/ ticketless gaining access to the ground. there would have been the potential for crushing and deaths outside the ground.
And what would the result of that have been? the police would have been vilified. there would have been demands, from the Merseyside faction for the SY police's chief constable's head on a platter.
The other option?
Let the latecomers/ drunks/ ticketless into the ground...
Result?
A massive crush *inside* the ground, resulting in 96 people dead, and the Merseysiders screaming for the SY polices' chief constable's head on a platter...
It's a lose-lose situation.
PT
timo
Unfortunately, as I said in a previous posting, the whole terrible tragedy has been turned into an industry on Merseyside. There are far too many people with far too much invested for the subject to become a detail of history, and the dead to be allowed to rest in peace. No useful purpose can be achieved by maintaining a "Justice Campaign", but on it will go. It is impossible to publically dissent from the views of people like Survivor and Wibbles in Liverpool. To do so, to question the unquestionable, is to court pariah status at the very least. A lynching, in some quarters, would not be beyond possibility. So, the version of events which lays the blame on the police and the club, which implies that all Liverpool supporters behaved like goody-goody Blue Peter kiddies on the day is perpetuated. Who, outside of Liverpool, truly believes that version of the story?
Strix
No. Scousers have a habit of standing up for what they believe in. They have a strong sense of what's right and what's wrong. The deaths of their friends and famlies was wrong. The scandal is how long the circumstances were allowed to continue. There was no need for SO MANY to die. Many people are grateful for their lives to the wpc who acted against her orders and opened the gates. THAT'S why the police are being blamed for this. Those ORDERS cost many lives.
And why did the fire and ambulance service not know where Hillsborough ground is? Their computer system only worked on street names. This was rectified after an enquiry, but this too contributed to the death toll.
timo
Strix, Liverpudlians do so often stand up for what they believe in, and I think that you are definately right regarding their collective moral "instinct" for what is "right" and "wrong". Liverpudlian contributions to charities often exceed the contributions of other cities. The city is, in the main, a friendly place where it is possible to encounter a great deal of kindness and consideration. However, there does appear to be a blind-spot where Hillsborough is concerned. Perhaps for some, the emotional meaning is too great for any disinterested, objective discussion of the tragedy. In your case, you at least do not resort to calling dissenters "bigots" etc, which is genuinely refreshing. You mention the WPC, and the business concerning the Ambulances [which I had never heard before]. I would appreciate it if you would say a bit more here, please. I am not sure that we can use the word "wrong" regarding the tragedy [no disrespect towards the injured and deceased intended here], but I sincerely wish it had not happened as much as you do. All the best.
Strix
Timo, I hope I've mis understood your statement 'I am not sure that we can use the word "wrong" regarding the tragedy' coz it certainly wasn't right.
Time is a healer, but only when you choose to forget, which is what I've chosen to do. Being too close to home, many of the newspapers from the time were collected but not read, the pain that the media enjoyed inflicting as they made a circus out of the whole thing was too much to subjuct ourselves to at the time. We have never been able to confront this. The box of newspapers has moved house with us three times, unopened.
I appreciate the efforts of the individuals on the ground. The offensive part to this and so many other tradgedies is the ability of the individuals at the top to draw an inflated salary on the grounds of their 'responsibility', but ask them to make a decision (which holds the power over life and death), and they bottle out. Oh, and it's somebody else's fault. The twerp in question had not managed an event like this before. His boss had previously done this, but had been promoted out of the role. HE offered his resignation, but he had not been involved. The arrogant prat calling the shots just squealed. Forgive the lack of names, like I said, I have to choose to forget.
The same scenario applies to the Hatfield train crash.
I can't supply details. I'm not opening the box. There are memories I'm not willing to share here. Where's the tissues?
And most of the fuel was poured on the fire, by the likes of the Sun newspaper embellishing stories to antagonise both paties and string the paper sales out.
PS. both of my uncles are VERY grateful to the residents of Hillsborough who opened their doors on that day, and in the weeks afterwads, when they returned to try to make sense of this mess.
timo
Strix, thanks for your honest, balanced posting. I suppose what I meant regarding the incident is that it is beyond "right" and "wrong". The incident was so tragic that the words are inadequate. Believe me, I genuinely sympathise with the survivors and families. I just do not accept the version of events which lays all blame on the police and the club. I am pleases that, even though the terrible day is very close to home for you, you are able to engage in proper debate with others. I accept that this may be painful for you. Your mature attitude contrasts greatly with that of the near-hysterical Wibbles [see previous pages], and is worthy of respect. All the best.
Strix
Shan't be reading the wibbles thanks. Hysteria gets nobody anywhere. Get aggressive enough about an issue and you'll only meet brick walls. Tit for tat. Stalemate.
Shan't be coming here again. Think I'll go and rant at somebody about something pointless. Let's see. 'View new posts' - prod
Andy78
Quote:
Originally posted by Tony
I have to disagree about the Irish thing. My fathers family are from a very poor Irish Catholic background and came here simply to find work. There is NO self pity in our family.
It is a curiously scouse (git) thing.
I've got to say tony; I've always appreciated your balanced view, but here you seem to be wiping out a whole city of people. It contradicts your previous morals against racism, for example. You seem to be generalising about a city. Surely you know that is not realistic? There is no self pity in my family either, nor is there in anyone else's family I know from back home. As a Mod I'd hope you'd keep yourself away from such stereotypes.
Lavalamp
Oh no of course the Police couldn't be to blame?! Do you even think before you post this crap?! Lets look at the facts shall we in 1989 stewarding at matches was nowhere near up to the standard it is now. I should know I have been doing the job for a number of years and for the majority not in Merseyside - before you ask. There is a training video that is shown to new stewards and even that says that failure to properly steward the match contributed to the tragic ACCIDENT. Even now some Police at matches are unwilling to intervene unless things get very bad, i.e. violent - and lets not forget they are getting payed to work at this game. I was working at a match a few weeks ago and a man ran onto the pitch and confronted a player - did the Police intervene - no- could he have had a knife - yes. Understandably, a complaint was made.
So why do you have this idea that Police never put a foot wrong - I'm not saying they are all bad - definitely not; but this ridiculous notion that drunken Liverpool supporters caused the disaster should stop here. There are drunken fans at every game, every where and it is up to the Police, safety stewards and turnstile operators to make sure they don't get in. If you don't believe me maybe you should get a job - put a bit back into crowd safety - and find out for youself. I have to agree these accusations could be viewed as racist not to mention deeply upsetting. Liverpool is a close community and that is why we will never forget. Obviously, there is something wrong with being human - sorry
kirky
stewards are jobsworth muppets..end of
BoroughGal
Quote:
Originally posted by Lavalamp
There is a training video that is shown to new stewards and even that says that failure to properly steward the match contributed to the tragic ACCIDENT.
"Contributed" being the operative word. Just as drunken fans contributed, with a whole number of other factors.
Quote:
There are drunken fans at every game, every where and it is up to the Police, safety stewards and turnstile operators to make sure they don't get in.
There were more drunk fans arriving late than at any match I have ever seen. And the police and stewards ONLY allowed them inside the ground to prevent a disaster occuring outside the gates. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Lavalamp
Quote:
Originally posted by kirky
stewards are jobsworth muppets..end of
Ok - but please expand on this, why exactly do you think stewards are jobsworth muppets? All Premier League stewards have to go through NVQ training in the course of employment - a rule brought in since Hillsborough (this is also being phased in for the lower divisions over the next couple of years). How can you slag off people who work to keep you safe at a match? Surely the people of both Sheffield and Liverpool appreciate the need for such a service. Yes, it is true some of them do just go to watch the match - but if you notice there are at least 200 stewards (required by law) at each match and the ones that are watching are normally pitchside. They are required to make sure that no-one encroaches onto the pitch. If someone does get onto the pitch the Police only are allowed to remove them, for fear of prosecution, etc. The stewards in the vomitories have the responsibility of keeping stairwells clear, watching for people standing, showing them to their seats and making sure that everyone leaves the ground safely. A steward is also employed to stay at each exit gate throughout the match in case of the need for evacuation.
A steward is not being a jobsworth if they ask you to sit down - they are doing so because if you fell it is highly likely that you would fall forwards onto the people in front and then they would do the same. Neither are they being picky if they tell you to stop standing on a stairwell - it is for your own safety.
But, if you still feel like that maybe we should try a match without any stewards. PNEFC tried a match without police to save money last season and the conclusion - never again.
Plus, surely it is subjective whether or not there were more drunken people there than at any other match? Some of the games I have worked at have been quite violent and bad stewards are not employed for long - especially when they let drunken people into the stands. The sad fact is no-one could have foreseen what happened and yes there was an error of judgement - by letting so many people in so quickly. Today it would just not happen - THANK GOD - and that is the main point I was trying to make. A number of factors contributed to Hillsborough - the well documented emergency services delay too. However, there is no need to point the finger and say "oh well - it is your fault you were drunk." Remember exactly what we are talking about here - 96 people went to a football match and never came back. Those who say it should have been more - should remember that we are not just talking about adults here, there were children too - still this probably won't change your minds.
Plain Talker
hang on a moment, lavalamp!
no-one has suggested that any of the 96 deaths that day at hillsborough were desirable, in any way shape or form!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
as far as I have read, no -one on here has suggested that any man. woman or child who died that day deserved to. every one of those deaths was awful, and sad.
What most of us had said was that the deaths were
PREVENTABLE
The deaths could have been prevented if the ticketless and drunken fans who arrived late, and caused the crush had either
a) had the sense not to travel, seeing as they were ticketless
b) had the sense not to turn up at the ground drunk,
and c) had the sense not to try to storm the ground to get in... (crushing and deaths outside the football ground versus crushing and deaths inside the ground... not an easy choice, eh?)
As I said in my earlier comments on this thread, the ones who perished were not the drunken, ticketless ones, they were the ones who had arrived in good time, and taken their positions in the Leppings Lane end Whilst I cannot vouch that every last one of those supporters already there was stone-cold sober, the evidence certainly seems to support the theory that they who were already in their positions hadn't spent the time up to kick-off, (virtually) in the pubs, doesn't it?
The kick off had alreay been delayed somewhat, because of the brewing problem outside the match iirc.
We can all pontificate on this matter, with a certain amount of hindsight, as hindsight is always an exact science.
The facts remain that it wasn't the Nottingham Forest supporters on Leppings Lane who were storming the ground... and it was not the fans who had arrived in good time and taken their positions in the ground in good time who were outside, storming the ground... so if it was not the orderly-acting fans, and it wasn't the Nottngam forest suporters. who was it?
It is well documented evidence that there were liverpool fans, drinking in local pubs right up to the scheduled kick-off time of 1500. many of whom were ticketless, and who tried to storm the ground to get inside.
Mr PT asks me to point out (a little controversially)"at the Heysel Stadium, when the wall collapsed, and killed 39, and injured 400+, was it also the case that the local police, and stewards there were to blame for the behaviour of the Liverpool fans?"
PT
stwar
being a wednesday fan and having a mother from liverpool that day was a very bad time for me ,also one of our friends on that day was an ambulance driver,it cracked her up .the police had no choice but to open the gates,because what everybody would like to think(perhaps to aportion blame)the liverpool supporters brought it upon their own people the were drunk they were late Iwas drinking with them!just view the video evidence the wall outside was ready to collapse unfortunatly the people who died on that daywere the propper supporters not the p***s heads that just go out for the day
pippin
I'm unclear about the backdrop to all this so a few questions:
Did Liverpool supporters have a good reputation prior to Hillsborough?
Did Liverpool supporters accept any blame for Hysel?
Did all Liverpool supporters have tickets?
Were no supporters drunk?
Did they all arrive at the ground in good time?
Did they all behave impeccably?
Did none cause a potential problem outside the ground?
Why does the HFSG "campaign to bring out the truth" when they apparently deny a fundamental one themselves?
Is there a memorial to Hysel at Anfield?
Why do people 'in the know' (Police, media, football authorities, stewards, other supporters etc) allow the facts to be masked?
Did Boris have it right?
timo
No offence to Pippin or anyone else, but isn't it time to close this thread. We've heard every argument from every side now, plus Boris's comments were covered on my now closed thread. Just a thought...
pitsmoorlad
Quote:
Originally posted by timo
No offence to Pippin or anyone else, but isn't it time to close this thread. We've heard every argument from every side now, plus Boris's comments were covered on my now closed thread. Just a thought...
I agree entirely, let's put this one to bed, nobody's going to make anyone change their mind and we'll just go round in circles.
TINK91
no, think i will keep this going Hitler.
