Enoch Powell.

[WaltonRed]

I am currently attempting to right an essay on him for uni, my angle is was he racist or was he a patriot and his attempts at debating immigration were tainted by his belief in that Britain should always come first, I think its the first point but whats everyone else's thoughts?

[hamstrung]

Neither. He was a cad & a bounder



Good Show!

[WaltonRed]

Originally Posted by hamstrung Neither. He was a cad & a bounder Good Show!

ha ha

[Paul Don]

His beliefs were ahead of their time if you ask me. I studied the topic in uni and my left-leaning lecturer pontificated about how wrong he was in the contect of a multicultural Britain and postive race relations. He failed to acknowledge that he was at least to some degree correct when race riots broke out in places like Burnley and Bradford, in 2000 or 2001, I think it was.

It really depends on the texts you are using to support your argument. There are many ways to interpret his speeches. As a Hitler-like calls to arms, say the lefties or a patriotic, sincere expression of fear of 'the other' from the right-wingers.

Argue that he was both. You can't be wrong as long as you explain why you think this. There is an author called Stuart Hall who has written an excellent socialist perspective on immigration. Although a Daily Mail rabble rouser, Peter Hitchens has also written extensively on the subject.

Good luck.

[WaltonRed]

Originally Posted by Paul Don His beliefs were ahead of their time if you ask me. I studied the topic in uni and my left-leaning lecturer pontificated about how wrong he was in the contect of a multicultural Britain and postive race relations. He failed to acknowledge that he was at least to some degree correct when race riots broke out in places like Burnley and Bradford, in 2000 or 2001, I think it was. It really depends on the texts you are using to support your argument. There are many ways to interpret his speeches. As a Hitler-like calls to arms, say the lefties or a patriotic, sincere expression of fear of 'the other' from the right-wingers. Argue that he was both. You can't be wrong as long as you explain why you think this. There is an author called Stuart Hall who has written an excellent socialist perspective on immigration. Although a Daily Mail rabble rouser, Peter Hitchens has also written extensively on the subject. Good luck.

Thanking you!

[Section_31]

Originally Posted by WaltonRed I am currently attempting to right an essay on him for uni, my angle is was he racist or was he a patriot and his attempts at debating immigration were tainted by his belief in that Britain should always come first, I think its the first point but whats everyone else's thoughts?

I've never really looked much into it, although the snippets I've seen and read all seemed to revolve around a 'this is all too much too soon' vibe rather than one of outright hate.
Apparently there was no real reaction to the speech he made in the room at the time (full of Conservatives I grant you) and supposedly a poll conducted revealed that many people (I think it was 70/80%) empathised with his overall message.

Controversial certainly, but I've never quite understood why his name and face have been made synonymous with race hate.

[WaltonRed]

Originally Posted by Section_31 I've never really looked much into it, although the snippets I've seen and read all seemed to revolve around a 'this is all too much too soon' vibe rather than one of outright hate. Apparently there was no real reaction to the speech he made in the room at the time (full of Conservatives I grant you) and supposedly a poll conducted revealed that many people (I think it was 70/80%) empathised with his overall message. Controversial certainly, but I've never quite understood why his name and face have been made synonymous with race hate.

I think a lot of that is people used the arguement to beat ethnic minorities with. I read a piece today from an asian doctor who said growing up after the rivers speech was terrible with people often saying Enoch was right.

He did want to repatriate people aswell which having been adopted by the BNP is now known as racist.

[PaddyBerger15]

It very much needs to be placed in the context of 1970's Britain Mick. Obviously somebody saying the self same things in the Britain of 2008 with 2nd and 3rd generation 'immigrant', 'empire' or whatever they would have been labeled then, families, post Race Relations Act and years of education and assimilation would be considered, correctly a racist. But back 30 years, the social landscape of Britain was a very different one, it was just becoming a melting pot of different races and cultures.
As Paul Don says eloquently above, you can take either stance, argue either side, and most likely, somewhere in between the two is probably the reality. What he said might have been controversial, even in the 1970s when racism was overt and commonplace, but the thing is, he wasn't actually wrong to any great degree in what he said.

[Monkeywool]

First rule of essay writing, it's "write" not "right." Learn the basics before you try to write about something.

[WaltonRed]

Originally Posted by Monkeywool First rule of essay writing, it's "write" not "right." Learn the basics before you try to write about something.

GUTTED!

Originally Posted by PaddyBerger15 It very much needs to be placed in the context of 1970's Britain Mick. Obviously somebody saying the self same things in the Britain of 2008 with 2nd and 3rd generation 'immigrant', 'empire' or whatever they would have been labeled then, families, post Race Relations Act and years of education and assimilation would be considered, correctly a racist. But back 30 years, the social landscape of Britain was a very different one, it was just becoming a melting pot of different races and cultures. As Paul Don says eloquently above, you can take either stance, argue either side, and most likely, somewhere in between the two is probably the reality. What he said might have been controversial, even in the 1970s when racism was overt and commonplace, but the thing is, he wasn't actually wrong to any great degree in what he said.

I think the 'rivers of blood' and the 'black man having the whip hand over the whiteman' is quite wrong but it seems he knew what he was doing when he said it.

[Section_31]

I was reading a book on Manchester gangs a while back, and the vibe seemed to be that the immigrant communities and the whites and the police had a good relationship, it was only when second and third generations started to come along that real friction occured.

I have no first hand knowledge of whether this is true or not, but if so it's a tragic shame and means that something somewhere went badly wrong.

[thechap]

Originally Posted by Section_31 I was reading a book on Manchester gangs a while back, and the vibe seemed to be that the immigrant communities and the whites and the police had a good relationship, it was only when second and third generations started to come along that real friction occured. I have no first hand knowledge of whether this is true or not, but if so it's a tragic shame and means that something somewhere went badly wrong.

Not quite. It means that human nature kicked in and started to assert itself. I don't believe Enoch Powell was trying to be racist. I think he understood human nature and was trying to point out that when you try to change a nations culture in a short space of time, a serious side-effect is an aggressive backlash from some. Just my opinion...

[TheHitman]

My dad lived in Liverpool 8 at the time which is one of the oldest migrant populations in the UK due to the docks, I'm a 7th generation immigrant basically most of my family were in the merchant navy going back 150 years.

It really did raise tension because the message although coming from a Conservative was felt most by a lot of the working classes think the dockers people working in car plants etc. These were the people who saw new faces who they thought were intrinsically different to them who were moving into their houses taking their jobs and hospital beds and god forbid messing about with their women from time to time.

I think the Enoch Powell story has taken a mythical twist he was a scholar a real wordsmith but a politician whose motives were maybe more to cause trouble within his own party. Didn’t he have a vendetta against his own leader having stood a couple of years earlier...

His department were responsible for recruiting nurses from the Caribbean and he had been a Wolverhampton mp for about twenty years(highly mixed area) when he made his speech and he didn’t vote in any bills against racial matters. So it seems unlikely that he felt that partisan as has been made out.

He knew what he was doing that doesn’t necessarily make him a racist in fact he supported Mau Mau detainees in Kenya who received shocking treatment.

To quote Tony Benn "Enoch Powell wasn’t a racialist but an inspirational figure for the racialists".

Sadly one thing that has come out of it is that people cant really talk about the issue of immigration without being labelled...

[Terry Tibbs]

Originally Posted by WaltonRed I am currently attempting to right an essay on him for uni, my angle is was he racist or was he a patriot and his attempts at debating immigration were tainted by his belief in that Britain should always come first, I think its the first point but whats everyone else's thoughts?

What? Our tax money not good enough for you, you now want us to write your essays for you as well? Your taking a liberty my son!

[WaltonRed]

Originally Posted by Terry Tibbs What? Our tax money not good enough for you, you now want us to write your essays for you as well? Your taking a liberty my son!

Sorry Mr.Tibbs