Masculinity

[Paul]

For various reasons, I've been giving this topic some thought recently and wondered what you all think about it. My son (just turned four) goes to school in the mornings and is right in the middle of his super hero, play fighting stage. He loves running around and pretending to fight with his mates. They never hurt each other and it's all done with a beaming grin a mile wide across his daft face. However, his teacher has said he's not allowed to play like this - despite telling us at parents' evening what a loving and caring boy he is. This has got me thinking seriously about the way our society regards masculinity.

It seems to me that masculine traits are becoming ever more demonised and feminine ones are eulogised and deemed to be more appropriate in everyday life. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating we all give in to our supressed rage or start lashing out at random individuals who disagree with us, but it bugs me that my lad can't be who he is. I mean, he hasn't been taught to play like that; he's just doing it (albeit with some influences from TV, but the impulse is innate, in my view). However, his teacher is telling him at the age of three/four that who he is at a genetic level is unacceptable.

Furthermore, the feminisation of his school environment is such that it is entirely feasible that he will not be taught by a man until he reaches secondary school - which brings me on to my next point. I think there's a crisis of identity amongst young men about what their place in society is (no longer the sole breadwinners) and how they should act (mixed messages about toughness and showing emotions). I look at the exam system and I'm convinced that the underachievement of boys is directly attributable to the removal of a competitive culture. O-level was 100% exam-based assessment and boys flourished in those high pressure situations. However, GCSE has a significant coursework element that is ideally suited to girls' desire to plan meticulously and put in long term effort for distant reward. Unfortunately for boys, it is entirely unsuited to their "last minute, sod the pressure" masculine nature.

In work, I increasingly hear male passion in conversation described as boorish by women, with a refusal to acknowledge our right to be blokes. Personally, I love being a bloke. I reckon I've got pretty high emotional intelligence too, mind, but I still love male culture. However, it seems that at every turn, there are subtle and not so subtle messages that denigrate masculinity. I don't for one second deny women the right to be feminine (whatever their definition of it may be), nor is this a subconscious cry for a return to the dark ages where women were second class citizens. This isnt really about women's place in society; it's about their view of ours. Am I wrong in thinking that, in order to elevate the status and equality of women (a laudable aim, in my view), men are denigrated?

Being (mostly) blokes on here, I fully expect there to be some piss-taking, gags and rants in response to this - which is OK; that's who we are. I wouldn't mind a bit of thought given to it as well though. This issue is directly affecting some of the things I care most about in life, like my son and the kids in my care at work (not to mention me), and I'd appreciate a few other points of view.

[BatChainPuller]

Originally Posted by Paul For various reasons, I've been giving this topic some thought recently and wondered what you all think about it. My son (just turned four) goes to school in the mornings and is right in the middle of his super hero, play fighting stage. He loves running around and pretending to fight with his mates. They never hurt each other and it's all done with a beaming grin a mile wide across his daft face. However, his teacher has said he's not allowed to play like this - despite telling us at parents' evening what a loving and caring boy he is. This has got me thinking seriously about the way our society regards masculinity. It seems to me that masculine traits are becoming ever more demonised and feminine ones are eulogised and deemed to be more appropriate in everyday life. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating we all give in to our supressed rage or start lashing out at random individuals who disagree with us, but it bugs me that my lad can't be who he is. I mean, he hasn't been taught to play like that; he's just doing it (albeit with some influences from TV, but the impulse is innate, in my view). However, his teacher is telling him at the age of three/four that who he is at a genetic level is unacceptable. Furthermore, the feminisation of his school environment is such that it is entirely feasible that he will not be taught by a man until he reaches secondary school - which brings me on to my next point. I think there's a crisis of identity amongst young men about what their place in society is (no longer the sole breadwinners) and how they should act (mixed messages about toughness and showing emotions). I look at the exam system and I'm convinced that the underachievement of boys is directly attributable to the removal of a competitive culture. O-level was 100% exam-based assessment and boys flourished in those high pressure situations. However, GCSE has a significant coursework element that is ideally suited to girls' desire to plan meticulously and put in long term effort for distant reward. Unfortunately for boys, it is entirely unsuited to their "last minute, sod the pressure" masculine nature. In work, I increasingly hear male passion in conversation described as boorish by women, with a refusal to acknowledge our right to be blokes. Personally, I love being a bloke. I reckon I've got pretty high emotional intelligence too, mind, but I still love male culture. However, it seems that at every turn, there are subtle and not so subtle messages that denigrate masculinity. I don't for one second deny women the right to be feminine (whatever their definition of it may be), nor is this a subconscious cry for a return to the dark ages where women were second class citizens. This isnt really about women's place in society; it's about their view of ours. Am I wrong in thinking that, in order to elevate the status and equality of women (a laudable aim, in my view), men are denigrated? Being (mostly) blokes on here, I fully expect there to be some piss-taking, gags and rants in response to this - which is OK; that's who we are. I wouldn't mind a bit of thought given to it as well though. This issue is directly affecting some of the things I care most about in life, like my son and the kids in my care at work (not to mention me), and I'd appreciate a few other points of view.

I feel pretty much the same Paul. Re how your son is "allowed" to play - I think this needs to be challenged - often these ideas are based on half-understood and outdated 1970's thinking.

The suicide rates amongst young males are at an all-time high - I think this is partly a reflection of the identity crisis facing a lot of lads. A bit of a cliche I know, but females expectations of men are a bit fucked up - they want caring, sensitive etc but also 'a real man' in certain situations.

When either gender is in a dominant role it tends to promote its own interests and viewpoints. I work in an office where the senior management is 90% female (and some bloke whose bollocks they removed ages ago) - they abuse their position and feather their nests in exactly the same way males do, but in a subtler way that you're not allowed to criticise.

My two year old son has all the male stuff going on - is totally fascinated by cars motorbikes etc - without us pushing any of this stuff on him. His grandparents bring him loads of toys and he goes straight for the cars etc.

[Spy Bee]

"We're a generation of men raised by women. I'm wondering if another woman is really the answer we need."

Not quite the same subject but it reminded me of that scene out of Fight Club.

There are still alternative ways for men to feel like they are acting like blokes, your son could do Karate, or something similar.

On the issue overall I think this was your main point?

Am I wrong in thinking that, in order to elevate the status and equality of women (a laudable aim, in my view), men are denigrated?

I'm not sure if it about the typical gender of a behaviour or just the best behaviours for life as it is today? Lets face it, in modern day society most of the best behaviours are typically feminine. We no longer need to go hunting elk with a sharp stick. We should at least in theory never need to get involved in physical confrontation to protect what is ours. Good education and social skills seem to be the key elements in having a successful life today.

[Spy Bee]

Originally Posted by BatChainPuller The suicide rates amongst young males are at an all-time high - I think this is partly a reflection of the identity crisis facing a lot of lads.

Another Fight Club quote I am afraid

We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly waking up to that fact, people. And we're very, very pissed off."

I totally agree about many young men having a huge identity crisis. They don't know where they belong in society, they don't know what they are expected to be and how they are expected to behave. I put that down to the way the world has changed though, not down to people enforcing feminist behaviours.

[Stu Monty]

I would agree with your ideas on the fact that there are basic constituent parts of the male make-up that are being demonised and pushed to one side by modern society. It's a hard balance because the point that many would see us aiming for is a less volotile, aggressive and "masculine" society. Add into this the fact than a huge amount of jobs that allowed men to vent thier masculinity, for example through physically demanding roles, are now no longer around; they are either done by machines or the industries have become decimated as the modern world moves towards services.

Personally I have no idea if I would be the same person without my football, but I fear I would be less stable. I train twice a week and play on a Saturday. Most important is the opportunity to get aggression, competition and certain ego boosts that I need. The ego thing might sound strange but people will always look for area is which they can be better than the crowd and I personally think that if you look at blokes slugging the shit out of each other on a friday night that is thier only access to satisfaction for these needs. It's healthy to have aggression and competition in your life, but channelled and in the right areas. I can assert physical superiority to someone on a saturday and it won't involve a trip to casualty for them, usually, which means I am a far more easy going person for the rest of the week.

I think your son play fighting is something which is healthy as long as he understands that force and aggression is not the way to approach everything.

Reading what you are saying made me think a bit about The Diceman book in that people are fearful of allowing the darker and more native sides of thier impulses out of the box. Who tells you that you can't "Do fight club" if you want to. Society, that's all, and what the fuck would they know.

[Dirk]

In an attempt to redress the balance from a chauvenistic patriarchy, successive governmens have quite rightly given more rights to women. However, it seems that we have/are gotten/getting to a point where the rights of the man are now treated with disdain and ridicule. Feminism is quickly becoming the new chauvenism. It's pretty disturbing because we are slowly beginning to see a generation of disaffected young men who don't understand their position in society.

We were brought up in a particular manner with particular expectations of how we should lead our lives and then the rules of the game changed. I hope this isn't misconstrued as one having expectations of women being slaves to the cooker, etcetera, it is not. My point is that, from our parents, we were given expectations of marriage and gender roles but in between the period between being born and us maturing there has been a shift in expectations and gender roles too. Some of them are for the better; more hands on parenting from fathers, women having the right to work/career choices.

Nevertheless, I can't help but feel that there has been a certain amount of denegration of rights for the male in all of this. I was at a gathering, held by one of my more civilised friends, and we were chatting at large about having kids. One woman was complaining because she thought that she should be able to work till she was forty and then have kids and if she couldn't conceive at this age - she's 25 now - it would be an infringement upon her femininity by nature.

You may wonder what relevance that this has to Paul's original assertions? Well, it is this form of rampant feminism, which flies in the face of billions of years of evolutionary programming which is part of the problem. If feminism is okay then why isn't that the case for its opposite chauvenism? Chauvenism sucks but so does rampant feminism. Maybe I seem like a dinosaur by putting forth this shit but it's how I feel.

[BatChainPuller]

Originally Posted by AdamS Another Fight Club quote I am afraid I totally agree about many young men having a huge identity crisis. They don't know where they belong in society, they don't know what they are expected to be and how they are expected to behave. I put that down to the way the world has changed though, not down to people enforcing feminist behaviours.

Obviously the reasons why lots of young males are in crisis are complex - I do think that confusion caused by the mixed messages males receive is a part of this. In the same way that imposition of male values and imperatives is commonly accepted as a contributory factor in female eating disorders.

I agree tho that there is a time lag in how males are adapting to the modern world - the political changes have been fairly rapid, attitudes and values take much longer to change - race is a similar area.

[Nunavut Patrick]

I believe the disintegration of the traditional family unit and the pursuit of mass consumerism is to blame for disenfranchised young males. Two people working outside the home is often a necessity if people want to make ends meet- but it the ends that they are meeting that is the problem. Bigger house, better products, etc. Even grocery shopping- I remember my ma used to buy flour, eggs, sugar, Ribena, bacon and the odd roast. Now you can spend a small fortune on shite at the grocers. Kids grow up watching their parents not scrape a living, but scrape by trying to afford a living that's usually out of their reach. Just look at all the adverts for loan consolidation, low interest rates, etc.

As for masculinity, it's more a society that has become afraid than any sinister female plot or eqaulity of the sexes. Gun play, rough play is discouraged because if little Paulie is playing Army than in ten years, if we don't modify this behaviour, he'll come back and shoot up the school. Or he'll turn into a bully and there'll be suicides all over the place because of it. If everyone would just chill out, let boys be boys and girls be girls- let them take the roles they naturally gravitate towards- everything would be fine. Instead, we'll throw a bunch of rules on them and they'll be wouind tighter than a ball of twine by the time they reach puberty that it's no wonder some of the snap before adulthood.

I blame Josemi.

[Dirk]

Originally Posted by Nunavut Patrick I believe the disintegration of the traditional family unit and the pursuit of mass consumerism is to blame for disenfranchised young males. Two people working outside the home is often a necessity if people want to make ends meet- but it the ends that they are meeting that is the problem. Bigger house, better products, etc. Even grocery shopping- I remember my ma used to buy flour, eggs, sugar, Ribena, bacon and the odd roast. Now you can spend a small fortune on shite at the grocers. Kids grow up watching their parents not scrape a living, but scrape by trying to afford a living that's usually out of their reach. Just look at all the adverts for loan consolidation, low interest rates, etc. As for masculinity, it's more a society that has become afraid than any sinister female plot or eqaulity of the sexes. Gun play, rough play is discouraged because if little Paulie is playing Army than in ten years, if we don't modify this behaviour, he'll come back and shoot up the school. Or he'll turn into a bully and there'll be suicides all over the place because of it. If everyone would just chill out, let boys be boys and girls be girls- let them take the roles they naturally gravitate towards- everything would be fine. Instead, we'll throw a bunch of rules on them and they'll be wouind tighter than a ball of twine by the time they reach puberty that it's no wonder some of the snap before adulthood. I blame Josemi.

I think you would have a different view if you had suffered siege journalism from Jermaine Greer. Deffo agree with the first paragraph and part of the second paragraph. There is definitely a sinister feminist movement in this country, though.

[Dirk]

In addition, I once held the door open for this woman and she said "don't patronise me". I then took to not holding the door open for women, which led to a female cousin passing comment about me not being chivalrous, and I replied "feminism killed chivalry".

[Spy Bee]

Originally Posted by You Knows It In addition, I once held the door open for this woman and she said "don't patronise me". I then took to not holding the door open for women, which led to a female cousin passing comment about me not being chivalrous, and I replied "feminism killed chivalry".

I suggest you should have said "Fuck off you ungrateful bitch!" to the first.

[Nunavut Patrick]

Originally Posted by You Knows It I think you would have a different view if you had suffered siege journalism from Jermaine Greer. Deffo agree with the first paragraph and part of the second paragraph. There is definitely a sinister feminist movement in this country, though.

Not familair with Jermaine Greer.

Children have become a luxury item for many. I've got three of the little feckers and they're damn expensive. Most of my co-workers who are married have one or two and there are some who's main reason in not having children is expense. Birth rates in the West are in drastic decline.

Comrades, it's time to take to the hills, set up a patriarchal society and ban urbanism and consumerism. We must be at one with the Great Creator who gave us the sun and the flowing rivers. There's plenty of caribou to go around, the herd near here numbers in the 100,000s. The lake teems with Arctic Char.

[Red Jersey]

Why did the woman cross the road?








Who cares? What the fuck she doing out of the kitchen?

Just say that next time to some feminist.

[andyfm]

I agree that as a gender, we are pretty screwed up. We have our father's generation's view of going to work to provide for the family. With the cost of "good living" being so high with property prices and all the mod cons required to be accepted in our heavily consumerist society, this is becoming impossible for most couples or family units to do on one wage.

I am not bothering having kids simply because I can't be arsed scraping by. Selfish, but that's the attitude of society that has been bred into me since the Thatcher years made it very plain we live in a disjointed world.

I also agree that women want it both ways. But they've always been crazy. However, it leads to an immense amount of confusion on our part as to when to act the man and when to just go to the pub instead until she gets it out of her system. I have dealt with this by using the simple mantra "I don't do cooking and I don't do cleaning". Since she knows from experience this is not showboating and that I will starve to death in a hovel before compromising these principles, it all works out okay.

The answer to "Don't patronise me" is obvious.... "Lesbo" or "Frigid bitch" are perfectly acceptable responses.